86. Learning and AI

Jeff Hunt:

Welcome to the Human Capital Podcast. I'm Jeff Hunt. Today we're diving into the topic of how we learn and grow. I've always been a proponent of being a lifelong learner, and that example was set by my grandfather, who took up the trombone at age 70 and became quite proficient at it. In the corporate world, learning and development is often left to HR, but when it's fully embraced by the executive team, we can see the impact that it has.

Edgar Dale gave us the Cone of Experience, which we'll talk about today. And this lays out the ways people learn. But when you think about yourself, what's the most effective way that you learn? Is it through a classroom-style lecture, hands-on experience, or teaching what you've learned to somebody else?

How is your organization handling what we call L&D? Have you ever considered the impact that a strong learning and development strategy could have on your ability to realize your organization's vision? These are crucial questions, and according to the Association for Talent Development, companies with robust L&D programs see a 24 percent higher profit margin than those that don't prioritize it.

Additionally, according to Deloitte, organizations that invest in comprehensive training programs See, a 218 percent higher income per employee compared to those that don't. So the ROI is clear. Investing in learning isn't just about upskilling. It's about setting your business up for long-term success.

The companies that understand this are often the ones that lead their industries, while those that overlook it struggle to keep up. Today I've invited Juliette Denny to help me explore this topic. Juliette is the founder and managing director of Growth Engineering Limited, an award-winning online learning management system used by the likes of L’Oréal, HP, and Samsung. And she also founded Iridescent Technology this year, which leverages the best of AI for custom learning. Juliette's article on Edgar Dale's cone of experience and its misconceptions caught my eye, and so that's why I invited her to the show today, and she's going to help me understand the complexities of this topic. With a background in psychology and marketing, Juliette is passionate about using innovative evidence-based methods to create learning environments that not only engage employees but also drive real business results. Her work has influenced countless organizations around the world, and she's here to share her insights on how you can elevate your L&D strategy to new heights. Welcome, Juliette.

Juliette Denny:

Thank you very much for having me on. Thank you.

Jeff Hunt:

I'm excited to unpack this because we've talked about so many different leadership topics on this show, but we've never really made our way around to the L&D topic and what's so interesting is this has the possibility of really allowing organizations to realize their vision, wouldn't you say?

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, I think L& D is one of those things that if you get it right and learning and development becomes kind of like the core of your organization, then that's really how kind of innovation, you know, thrives and flourishes. But I think a lot of organizations don't necessarily utilize L&D with a view of improving profitability and turnover. But certainly with the companies that we've worked with, what we've seen is, when you put learning and by default innovation at the heart of everything that your company does and you connect ideas and people in a way that you can do with learning and projects and things like that, you can really, really start to see the effects in terms of, turnover and profit.

I think it's an under, underrepresented, but very important department.

Topic 1. A thumbnail on Juliette’s career. Who or what inspired you the most along the way? (03:52)

Jeff Hunt:

So, before we get into the weeds, I want our listeners to get to know you a little bit. How did you end up where you are today?

Juliette Denny:

I ended up where I am today really because I fell into technology straight out of university and this was, you know, for people who can possibly believe this, this is before the internet.

So, my first job was in the box software industry. And then I got involved in the dot com boom and bust while we were doing our postgrads at Harvard, my ex-husband and I, and wow, I was just, just blown away about that, how you could build applications in real-time and deliver patches, in, in real-time.

And I just loved it. So when we came back to the UK, To have our family, I was committed to basically building a B2B SaaS company. I was really inspired by, what Salesforce was doing and HubSpot. And I was like, I want, I want one of these companies for, learning and development.

So, that's how, how it all started from my attic all the way down to my bedroom sorry, basement. Yeah, we've grown and we've been around now. All growth engineering has been around for 20 years. And iridescent, yeah, about a year. So yeah, that's what brought me here.

A fascination with technology and learning, I think.

Jeff Hunt:

And along that journey, who was the one person or who were a couple people that inspired you most along the way?

Juliette Denny:

Well, I mean, truth be known, I was, I was thinking about this and I think the person who inspired me most was actually fictional. So probably like a lot of girls growing up.

So, I'm 52 now. So, when I grew up, it wasn't really women were, weren't really working outside the home. They were working inside the home. Yeah. And I was surrounded, my whole world was surrounded by, women that didn't have careers. But there was a program called Dynasty. I don't know if you remember Dynasty in Dallas.

And there was a woman on there called Alexis Colby and she had her own oil company and she had a cowboy boyfriend. Who like, talked, you know, with the cowboy accent and he wore kind of, you know, cowboy shoes. But she refused to marry him. She had her own money, she got up in the morning and put on gowns and diamond tea.

And I was just like, I want to be that woman. Now I've never achieved those dizzy heights and I don't have a cowboy as a boyfriend. But she was definitely my inspiration to, you know, Kind of see if I could form my life around, not working in the home or not having that as my central kind of reason for being.

So I think she was definitely fictional character. She was, definitely my inspiration.

Topic 2. Edgar Dale’s cone of experience and its most common misconceptions (06:23)

Jeff Hunt:

I love that. I mentioned in the introduction, this Edgar Dale's cone of experience, which many people may not be familiar with that and I also mentioned that I actually, got in contact with you because what you wrote about this was actually fascinating to me.

So I'm wondering if you can take a couple of minutes to first explain what is Edgar Dale's cone of experience, and then talk about some of these misconceptions.

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, sure. Edgar Dale's cone of experience really tries to put some sort of context and format in and around how we experience learning.

So, what he was trying to allow us to kind of look at is what is, what, what experiences are we going through that basically build up learning and knowledge in our brains? So, it's not necessarily a scale, but what it is, is from what he called, abstract ways of learning to more concrete ways of learning.

So an example of that would be like an abstract concept would be like a picture or some words or, and then as you move through, it goes into, let's say, watching a movie and then it goes through to exhibits and then it goes through to more practical things like study trips or demonstrations or, and then finally you get to direct and purposeful experiences that he called it.

So, you can see how when you are having a learning experience, it can be abstract, like, I'm just going to watch something. I'm just going to view something all the way through to this kind of very kind of immersive, immersive experience. So that's what, it illuminates for us. And I think it's quite helpful to understand what makes a more concrete learning experience.

However, then there comes this weird rub whereby about 10 years after he had published this paper, somebody put percentages on it. So they said, well, if you're just given something to read, or if you're just given something to look at, that's going to only be sort of 10% of your attention or your ability to learn.

Whereas if you have a direct and purposeful experience, that's more like 90 percent in terms of the learning effectiveness of that experience. Now, he never said that. And that has caused some real issues in learning and development for many, many reasons. So this is the kind of complex bit, but one of the things that that it's done is it's put a heavy onus on training in the workplace as opposed to more formalized training.

So that's kind of one of the hangovers and experiential learning isn't necessarily any higher impact than, just one type of learning. So, watching a movie or a video it depends on the structure of that experience and the instructional design. So, there's a lot more to it.

So, it's really simplistic to say, Let's watch a video and it's that's going to be 20 percent all the way through to an immersive experience of that's going to be 100%. Unfortunately, it has been, rather, changed in terms of what, he was originally trying to illuminate for us.

Jeff Hunt:

Sure. And it seems like generally. People really love these types of structures. They love to be able to say, well, 10 percent is from reading or, assigning percentages so that they can then develop strategies that, tick the box on those various percentages and then have somebody arrive if, so to speak.

And what you're saying is that there's a lot more complexity about this and that we need to really understand these nuances of how people learn in order to develop programs and leverage technology to help them learn in the most effective way. Is that right?

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, I mean, brilliantly said, I think when you look at the way people learn, so this Edgar Dale's cone of experience model is useful.

It allows us to understand, you know, how you can maybe reinforce the learning. The kind of the ways of learning, but one of the models that I really use a lot is Bloom's taxonomy. I think Bloom's taxonomy is a really good way of understanding how you get the brain engaged.

When you're looking at instructional design, one of the things that you want to do is first of all, ensure you've got attention of the learner. That's the first thing. And unfortunately, in the one-to-many world that we live in, and by that, I mean, you've got a teacher at the front of the desk that basically is instructing, many people all in the same way, or even in e-learning, you're going to have the same thing.

So you create the module once and it's delivered in the same way. One of the things that we don't get is that attention. And if we, when we do get that attention, sometimes it's not very good attention. It is, I have to do this, which is absolutely the wrong brain state to be in if you actually want to learn something.

And then the next thing is concentration. So in the one to many, method, this as well is really difficult to manage because cognitive load is a very individual thing, when I get cognitive load, it will be very different to you. So it's those two things. Now what, Edgar Dale's cone of experience shows us is that there are lots of different levers that we can, we can pull, okay, and that's, from the abstract to the concrete.

Now, how and when we use those levers. on the instructional design, just in the same way as when we look at Bloom's taxonomy, you have to deliver the information in order to get to the higher levels of Bloom's taxonomy, discuss, analyze, interpret, evaluate, etc. But this world, for me, is what is so fascinating about the quality of education.

So, we think that we are educating people and teaching people, but we know so little about actually the way, the brain works and we apply what we know about, the science of learning, if you like, just not in a very purposeful manner. And so a lot of the learning experiences.

People have, they just don't enjoy. And this, of course, it's just not good for the human race. We are curious by design, we want to learn, but, schools and, a lot of corporate learning literally crushes the curiosity out of us.

Topic 3. Using Edgar’s Cone in the corporate world (12:52)

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. It seems like so many learning programs try to fit the variability of people into a box and people are so varied.

And they learn in so many different ways that you really can't do that. The other thing that I'm just realizing is maybe the importance. I like to have you talk a little bit about this, the importance when you zoom out and you look at this as an organizational strategy, the importance of communicating the why to employees before we even get started on our learning processes.

So, for instance, if I am an employee and I truly understand my organization's vision and where we're going and why we're going there. There are core values, our purpose. And it's explained to me how those elements fit in to this specific learning that I need to do and how I'm going to become more of a valuable employee as a result and how I'm going to help our organization realize this vision. So I'm, what are your thoughts on that?

Juliette Denny:

I mean, I think you're completely right. And again, when we go back to how people learn, yeah, the first thing is gaining their attention. If somebody says to you, learn this because you have to, you don't have their attention. However, if somebody says, in your role, you're going to need this information.

In order to XYZ and contextualize the learning requirement in and around your ambitions, your roles, the role that you have to play within that organization, how you have to influence people. Then suddenly you're like, Oh, I understand. You have my attention. I now understand the relevance and importance of this information.

And so, yes, I will. Absolutely consume it. And then the really exciting bit comes when you're concentrating. So the way the brain works is it does not like to be, it doesn't like to passively receive a lot of information. It likes to apply, it likes to evaluate, it likes to determine, it likes to play with that information.

And so, In most one-to-many experiences the learning process is passive. So I'm sitting here and I'm listening, but actually what I want to do is ask questions I want to inquire, I want to, evaluate, I want to test my knowledge I want real-time feedback. And so if you look at the way the brain works versus our educational slash training model, we're just miles away from where we need to be to create really happy, curious, humans.

And what also does really fascinate me in really studying the way, the brain works is, is the fact you can't stop humans being curious. And when you do, they just die. Like, you know, we can't help to be curious. And so, the school environment that we put, kids in literally does drive the curiosity out of them, but for a lot of them, but yet we still carry on trying to be curious.

And I'm so fascinated to see what the new technologies in terms of AI can deliver to really allow this massive explosion of curiosity that I know humans are capable of. It's just hitherto they've been locked out of because they didn't have the right, teaching and educational experience.

Topic 4. Is retention the same as success? The 4D process (16:14)

Jeff Hunt:

I'm so glad you referenced that point to curiosity because it feels like we've spent so many years beating that out of people. Like you said our consulting services, one of the reasons why we are successful in the way my business consults with clients is because of our superpower of curiosity and being willing to ask those questions.

And sometimes those tough questions, but it feels like when you're approaching it from a learning standpoint, if you allow that curiosity, what you're really allowing is that spark inside somebody to take ownership of the learning themselves. So, it all of a sudden becomes synchronous rather than asynchronous.

So I'm now involved rather than just receiving and it makes sense to me. So yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up. I wanted to talk briefly, Juliette, about How many companies still rely on retention percentages as a measuring stick of success. And I'm wondering what you think about why this, if you agree that this myth still persists and maybe what leaders can do to develop more reliable, measures of training effectiveness because learning and training and development is in for many organizations feels like an ethereal thing.

It's put out there. How do we actually measure it? Yes, you can have people take tests to measure their competency, but there's a whole other universe of learning aspects that you really can't measure. So what are your thoughts about that?

Juliette Denny:

Well, I mean, this is a problem that we're trying to solve.

So when I was working in, in growth engineering one of the things that we really kind of put ourselves out to do was engagement. So it was all about gamifying the learning experience, gamifying career development so that. learners would be compelled and engaged in their own learning.

What we came, what, what I came to realize, and this is why I stepped out of growth, enduring and started iridescent is that with AI technologies, we can do a lot more. So the product that we're building with iridescent technologies is called ZAFMO. And it basically follows a process we call the 4D process.

And I'm going to explain this because hopefully it'll become clear how we get better learning outcomes from a process that is more holistic. So the first D is discovery. So what we're interested in doing is we're interested in saying, right, this is where the company, wants to go, and this is the purpose of your role.

And this is basically what we come to understand about you and your ambitions. Okay. So we've started to look at the world that you live in, in a more holistic way. So we want to know, not only about what the company wants you to know, but what you're interested in, what your hobbies are, what your interests are, what your ambitions are. Okay. So that's first, the discovery phase. And that's really, really important because we can't really engage you, get your attention, and make you concentrate. If we're not delivering the learning in and around those things, the next phase we go into is called the discussion phase. And this is about habbit forming. So it's saying, okay. So we recognize that you want to do this learning. We need you to do this learning. You want it to be delivered, in the following way, but learning is one of those things you have to do little and often, are you prepared to do it. So there's an element of, are you saying yes to development?

Okay, so if we're in school, or if we're being developed as part of a corporate, we don't get to say yes. What we get, we just have to do it. And that again is not a good thing for the brain to go through. So the discussion is about accepting and saying, yes, I want to move forward with this learning.

We then go into delivery, but delivery is not one size fits all. Delivery is based on your role, your context, your ambitions, your interests. So we can interweave the content in and around your job role. So that's where basically we do the, the learning objectives, meet the learning objectives. Then we go into demonstration, which is all about role-play case studies and basically meeting the learning outcomes.

And the reason why all of that kind of comes together and it is the way it is, is because that's how we get attention and concentration, and that's how the learning becomes relevant to the learner. Now, what does that mean in answering your question in terms of Yeah, how do we show we've basically done something?

So we put a huge amount of work into this. We've basically customized the learning to your career aspirations, the way you want to learn, taking into account any of your neurodiversity needs. But how do we monitor and measure that? Well, the great thing about using large language models and about using AI is that we can tag and flag all sorts of sentiment analysis data, all sorts of data that we couldn't hitherto track. So we can say how efficiently you are putting your knowledge into practice. We can say, let's say you're doing something like avoiding, conflict or in the workplace or whatever it might be. We can see how quickly that information is moving from delivery into demonstration and how you might cope with managing teams, creating innovation, applying whatever it might be, we can see that as you move through the process.

So what we're trying to do is we are trying to capture a lot more data and make sense of the nuances of that data in a way that we just couldn't before when we were, only looking at very linear SCORM data. So, we should be moving towards a world where we can see rapid evolution of individual contributions because we are supporting them in, their learning and, their advancement and we're going to be able to see the results on an individual basis.

And then obviously we can cascade that, that up is to overall what the company, is doing in terms of applying the knowledge. So I think this is the really exciting cusp that we're on in terms of what AI can deliver to learning, experiences.

Jeff Hunt:

And from a product development standpoint, how far along are you? Are these products being realized today? You started Iridescent this year. Where are we in that journey?

Juliette Denny:

So we're just coming out of Alpha and we're just about to launch Beta. What that means is we can have the whole conversation with Zavmo.

Going through the 4D process. The other thing that I should say that's really important with Zavmo and this might not apply to every client, but I think it's a useful way of understanding how polarized It's standards qualification and vocational standards are particularly in countries like the UK or Europe or India or Indonesia so that lots of governments have paid and invested a lot in their vocational and academic qualification structures.

So this is basically a structure that starts from as soon as you start in the school system all the way through to, the highest level of graduates. So in the UK and Europe and in lots of other countries, they have. What they call national occupational standards. So every single industry has functional standards.

And we also have qualifications which are vocational and academic. Now one of the problems that we see in corporate training is that if I do something like leadership skills or I do soft skills or I do team building or I do financial accounting, often what's happening is I'm being trained but I'm not being rewarded for it.

And so that affects passporting. So one of the things that we're doing with the data lake in Zadmo AI is we have. basically sucked in every single national standard across Europe and the UK, every single national standard in terms of academic and vocational qualifications. So every time you touch SAFMO, whether you're doing gardening, whether you're doing investigation skills, whether you're doing nursing, whether it doesn't matter what you're doing, you will get benchmark against an awarding standard.

So let's say you're doing first aid in a company. It's something that you can see meets the national standard and you can obviously passport that. Because one of the problems again in traditional L&D is that companies spend millions and millions of pounds training people up, but there's nothing in it for the individual.

And so what we're trying to say to, you know, for these large corporates is, is no, what you're doing is you are investing in your people and this is the result of that. So when you're training people in project management or whatever it is, that's a transportable skill. So that's another thing that we're trying to bring in that hitherto you just couldn't bring in.

There is no way you could have school me learning units or having one teacher. So one instructor likes that though. Know absolutely every qualification and every standard where you are, that it would just be possible without AI. So, yeah, we're going into our first pilot with our first large portrait in September.

So that rollout will be to just a couple of thousand people. But then after that, hopefully, we will be kind of moving forward learning, and pivoting.

Topic 5. AI and augmented reality helping contract and abstract learning experiences (25:40)

Jeff Hunt:

One of the things I was wondering , and by the way, this is the incredible benefit that comes from large language learning models.

There's no way you could do this. AI brings all of these standards together. And allows us to leverage and use them in ways that are profound to humanity. And so quite thankful for that. And obviously there's some sensitivity around that. So I want to get into that as well. Privacy concerns and things like that.

But before we, we talk a little bit about that. Is AI also going to help flex the difference, the custom difference by individual between concrete and abstract learning experiences, or is that even necessary?

Juliette Denny:

I think it will. So when you look at abstract and concrete learning experiences, you absolutely need both just in the same way as, Bloom's Taxonomy teaches us so there are kind of similar similarities.

In the fact that you have to know something in order to basically have a full, concrete understanding of that behavior. So sometimes when I look at, Edgar Dell's cone of experience, it almost feels like, It's almost like smooch. So in order to have concrete experiences you have to experience more abstract, elements of learning as well.

So I think AI will most certainly allow for that, but AI will always, by definition, be quite a linear kind of experience. Although I say that we're doing a project at the moment where you've got multiple AI agents playing multiple roles. So in that scenario, you are actually having conversations with lots of different personalities in order to crack a crime.

And you have to basically discuss with lots of different personalities to get the clues in order to move through to basically crack the Crap, crap, the cybercrime, so. Yeah, maybe you can have the full concrete experience, but you're not going to be able to smell it and you're not going to be able to touch it.

You're only going to be able to talk to it, you know?

Jeff Hunt:

Yes, exactly. Well, and it seems like there are certain aspects of learning that could really be important when it comes to things like virtual and augmented reality. And I'm wondering if you have thoughts about how we're going to see that become integrated into learning systems in the future.

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, I think this is a really good point. So one of the things that I, uh, I look at a lot is you have the technology, you have the content and you have the instructional design. So You know, a lot of people say, well, the problem we've got is we just need more content, we need a content library, we need, or they'll say, if we had VR and AR, it would be, we would be able to transform learning.

But actually, what you need is really good learning pedagogy, in my view. Okay, so in my view, it's about, do we understand how people learn, and if we do, it doesn't matter if we've got a pen and paper. You know, all good happy are away are right, the real thing is, can you that the first step should be, do you understand how people learn and how they move knowledge to behavior?

One of the problems that we have in the learning world is very much that we will push out knowledge, so we'll say here watch this video and you will be able to, and you'll have learned it, but the problem is that. Uh, experience of pulling in that, that information does not change behavior. And what organizations want is a change of behavior.

So it's only through evaluation and application. And this is why going back to Edgar Dale's kind of experience, it's only by the application that you would get in a concrete learning experience, that basically the learning moves from knowledge to behavior.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Juliette Denny:

So do I think that we're going to have some extraordinary learning experiences? Yes. But will those learning experiences stick and make any difference? No, if we don't follow best-in-class learnings pedagogy.

Jeff Hunt:

It also feels to me like the opportunity for virtual and augmented reality could be greatest in the area of corporate culture development and the inculcation of core values.

So for instance, if I am needing to do some sensitivity training or help our employees better understand the true meaning of our core values, that those augmented and virtual sort of reality settings could be more applicable. Do you agree with that?

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, I do. And I, and I think AI can also just linear chat can also help with that because what it can do is it can pick up on the person's context in order to make more real and more personal the values.

So what do those core company values mean to me and how are they going to work within my role? So I think it, again, it comes back to this idea of How can we get attention? The first bit is how do we make the learning experience get attention, get your attention and then hold your concentration.

And then the final element is basically putting that into long story, long, long term memory, i. e. changing behavior. So it's those three things we need the learning to do. And we're not, doing them to the extent that we will be able to do those facilitated by, AI VR and all the other kind of exciting technologies, but we've got to understand that that's the process in which we get behavior change. Concentration.

Jeff Hunt:

Gotcha. Yeah. So exciting , and you must be very excited running your company. In terms of seeing the evolution of this technology and how it's going to benefit people.

Juliette Denny:

I mean, I'm just blown away by it. I think one of the things that I, I think is really interesting, having worked 20 years in SAS in SAS learning technologies, building LMSs, LXPs, putting them into large corporates is there is a massive frustration with admin in these.

SAS platforms, they're not necessarily that intuitive. They're not. And so what ends up happening is, is the focus of the L and D team comes in. Okay. I've got to create content. I've got to upload it. I've got to admin it out. I've got to do X, Y, Z. And so the actual learning, actually facilitating the learning experience is and improving the learning experience is something that often they don't have time for, they don't have the time and they don't have the resources for, but I do believe that we're at this. This revolution that we're on will allow learning and development professionals do what they're really passionate about, which is identify what makes people curious, identify what makes people, ambitious and innovative and allow that to to take flight within their organizations. Because if L& D can do that, they are really at, the cornerstone, they are absolutely, the spark that will, ignite the future growth of their companies.

Topic 6. Lighting round questions (32:35)

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, it's almost as if these efficiencies allow people to work on their businesses rather than for their businesses and work on strategic things rather than tactical things. So I really appreciate that reference. So Julia, as we wrap up, are you ready for the lightning round questions?

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay. The first one is what are you most grateful for?

Juliette Denny:

Oh, goodness gracious. What am I most grateful for? I mean, I think All told I've really enjoyed my career, but I have really, really enjoyed being a parent. It's the hardest thing that you could ever, ever imagine. But now when I look at my boys, I just, I am just, I just feel so unbelievably blessed and I don't know how they turned out so perfect. Like you're amazing. Um, so yeah, what am I most grateful for? Absolutely. The blessing of, being able to, to parent has just been I mean, I'm not saying I was that good at it, but you know, I did absolutely love every second of it.

Jeff Hunt:

Yes. Well, I'm right there with you. I have two grown boys and I feel exactly the same way.

So thank you for the reminder. What's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Juliette Denny:

I'm a people pleaser, so I'm not a good manager. I, I'm a terrible manager. I really struggle with conflict and I'm a bit of a nerd. And so, those things make it really difficult to manage people.

I am a terrible people manager, and I know it's a vital part of everything that I do, but I'm just terrible at it. And so that realization really helped me. So what I now do is I go, okay, well, I'm a terrible people manager. I'm much better leader. So what I need is good people manager in front of me in those lines, and then everyone will be protected.

You know, I went. Visibly. And, people will be able to, flourish underneath better management.

Jeff Hunt:

That's great. I love that. As they say, , surround yourself with people that are better than you and you'll succeed. Who's one person you would interview if you could, living or not?

Juliette Denny:

I think definitely Steve Jobs. I love the way that he was meticulous about the tiny details, and I'm the same. I'm like, no, that's friction. We want things to be beautiful. We want, the product to be loved and liked. We want to create emotional resonance. And I'd love that. To speak to him about his passion for creating that instant love, and when we launched the growth engineering platform, and we started doing the gamification, you could see it in the eyes of, the learners and the admins, they were like, wow, that is just, we just love it.

It's not a sales process. It's like, yes, what we have created, people want, they want it. They will come and buy it. And I'm just fascinated by the difference between a product that people buy and the product people can't help buying. So yeah, Steve Jobs would be my go to.

Jeff Hunt:

Do you have a top book recommendation for our listeners?

Juliette Denny:

Top book recommendation? I like The Alchemist. I think The Alchemist is a nice one. So yeah, I would say The Alchemist, but also Del Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, I think is an awesome book.

Jeff Hunt:

Timeless.

Juliette Denny:

Yeah, absolutely timeless. So yeah, those two.

Jeff Hunt:

Sure. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Juliette Denny:

You won't get the clients you think you're going to get.

Jeff Hunt:

Hmm.

Juliette Denny:

And I think when you start businesses often you, you assume things that don't actually end up happening. And so, unless you are willing to fail and actually embrace failure. Even more than success, quite frankly. It's just not going to work out.

I always say it's much better when you fail because then you know something's gone wrong. When you have success, not that I've had that much success, but when you have success, sometimes you don't even notice that you're actually succeeding. Whereas failure, it's a bit more binary.

Jeff Hunt:

Such a good lesson there. Julia, you have given us so much great information today, and if you had to synthesize down to a few bite sized chunks of the most important takeaways, what would those be?

Juliette Denny:

I think as we approach the kind of revolution that will be the AI revolution, okay? One of the things that's really, really important is understanding the distinction in the way that large language models learn and the way ai, delivers information and the way humans are capable of connecting the dots and innovating.

And my takeaway point would be is learn the difference. 'cause there is something magical about the way the human brain learns, connects, dots, innovate, create. Yeah. So AI works for the human brain, and we should be embracing AI to the extent that it can allow the human brain to be better. And that's really what my interest is.

So don't be scared about the future of AI. Be really excited about the possibilities that it's going to bring to you personally, not to the industry, but to you personally, think about how it can help you be the greatest version of yourself.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that. And I want to do one add on which I mentioned earlier and I forgot to come back to, but what, what are your thoughts about data privacy and concerns that people may have relative to AI and learning?

Juliette Denny:

Yeah. So one of the things that I see in AI is I believe that the way we will go is we will all end up having our own AI and that might come. Okay, it might be delivered by another company, but we should be able to choose how that information is used. So when I think about Zapmo AI, in order to provide the most perfect learning experience for An individual, we need to know about your hobbies.

We need to know about the career that you want to get into. We need to know about your neurodiversity needs, but that doesn't mean to say that we should be sharing that information with the wider world. At the end of the day, you should be saying, yes, I want the AI experience. Okay. Yes. I want the AI to do the work to deliver me the perfect learning experience, but no, I don't need to share, every aspect of my data. And so What I would say is, when you're interfacing with these AIs, it's just important to know what information is going back to, and you know, what information you own. Certainly, when we look at the corporate clients that we've got, we can't share that information. It's hosted on the corporate, dedicated cloud and, there's nothing we can do with it.

And rightly so. And I think that should be the same. As when you are hosting a business-to-consumer application, you know, we won't be selling any information that isn't, asked to sell. Jeff Hunt:

Great. Thank you so much for clarifying that. I didn't want to leave that important piece of information unsaid.

Juliette, thank you so much for coming on the show listeners we're going to put links to Juliette's companies and her LinkedIn profile in our show notes. So, feel free to take a look at what she's got going on. Juliette Denny. Thanks for coming on the Human Capital Podcast.

Juliette Denny:

Thank you very much, Jeff. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your insightful questions.