92. Self-Compassion for Burnout

Human Capital Podcast Interview: Episode 92: Dr. Kristin Neff [00:00:36] Jeff Hunt: Welcome to the Human Capital Podcast. I’m Jeff Hunt. Today I'd like to start this episode discussing a difficult truth. Burnout is everywhere. According to a recent Gallup survey, 76 percent of employees experience burnout at least sometimes. And 28 percent of those feel burned out either very often or always. The World Health Organization has officially recognized burnout as a workplace phenomenon and the American Institute of Stress reveals that it costs U. S. businesses an estimated 300 billion annually in lost productivity, absenteeism, turnover, and healthcare expenses. These numbers are not just statistics. They are human beings. And they're also a wake up call for all of us. So here's the question. As a leader, how can you create an environment where burnout is less likely to occur? If you’re an individual contributor, how do you recognize the signs of burnout in yourself and others? And what can you do about it? And for all of us, how can self-compassion, a concept that might seem too soft for the high pressure world of work, Become a powerful tool for resilience and recovery. To answer these questions and more, I’m thrilled to introduce my guest, Dr. Kristen Neff. Kristen is an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and she's a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research. Kristen is the co founder of the Center for Mindful Self Compassion and the author of several groundbreaking books. But today. We will be discussing her latest work, Mindful Self Compassion for Burnout, which brings the science of self-compassion into the urgent conversation about workplace well being. Welcome, Kristen. [00:02:20] Kristin Neff: Hi, Jeff. Thanks so much for having me. [00:02:22] Jeff Hunt: It's great to have you on the show. I’m thrilled to discuss this subject. It's often a subject that seems to be confusing for many people because they, they might feel it or experience it from others, but they don’t really know what to do about it. So I’m really looking forward to diving in. [00:02:37] Kristin Neff: Great. Yeah, me too. [00:02:39] Jeff Hunt: As we begin, I’m reflecting on the fact that in order for us to have compassion for ourselves, it’s very helpful to know what we are feeling. So my first question for you, Kristen, is how are you feeling right now? [00:02:53] Kristin Neff: Oh, me personally? [00:02:54] Jeff Hunt: Yeah. [00:02:55] Kristin Neff: Well, so, um, I’m doing pretty good. I've got a couple of health issues going on. I’m going in for knee surgery in about a week, but, um, other than that, I’m good. So just the normal stuff of life. If it’s, I don’t know if you've noticed this as you get older, things start like. Breaking down and falling off and growing in place, you know, things start happening to your body. So yeah, just, just part of life. [00:03:21] Jeff Hunt: Exactly. That kind of adds a different dimension than what we were used to before, doesn't it? [00:03:26] Kristin Neff: Exactly. We took it all for granted. That's right. [00:03:29] Jeff Hunt: true. So true. So, I want to get into your book, which I just finished reading and listeners, I highly recommend you pick up this book, uh, and we will put a link to the book in our show notes along with references to Kristen. So take a look there, but before we dive into that, give me a short overview of how you ended up as kind of a thought leader in this field. And what prompted you to write this book with Chris Germer? [00:03:55] Kristin Neff: Yeah. Okay. So most of my work is inspired by my personal life. I think that’s true for many people. And for me, the reason that when I got into self-compassion, it was for purely personal reasons. It was actually my last year of graduate school at uc, Berkeley, and I was feeling a lot of stress. There was a stress of getting my dissertation completed and passing my orals. The bigger stressor was ha, after having spent years to get my PhD, would I get a job right? The job market's very, very small for, um, especially for academics. Um, and so I, I wanted to find some way to deal with all the stress I was experiencing. And I had heard, this is back in 96, uh, that mindfulness meditation was good for stress. I've heard about Jon Kabat Zinn's work, for instance, on stress and, uh, mindfulness. So I went to the closest group I could find, which was actually taught in the tradition of a man named Thich Nhat Hanh, who's a Vietnamese Zen teacher, um, past, and thank goodness for me that I went to his group, mindfulness group, because Thich Nhat Hanh was one of those teachers way before it was fashionable. Who talked explicitly about self-compassion. So the very first night I was learning how to meditate and like it, it took me a little while to be totally honest, how to be mindful and what that looks like. But the very first night, the woman who was leaving the group said, it’s really important that you turn compassion inward as well as outward, that you treat yourself like a good supportive friend. And so it was like, Oh gosh, I never really thought of that. So I actually went home that night and you don’t know it was around and I spoke out loud to myself like a friend I said, you know Kristen. I know you’re going through a lot of stress right now It's totally normal anyone in your situation would feel this stress as well. It's gonna be okay, you know, so sorry It's difficult, but I’m here for you. I just spoke to myself like I would imagine a good friend speaking to me And I was so amazed by the immediate difference in my ability made in the ability for me to handle my stress. Didn't make the stress go away. So I like those magic tests, but what it did is instead of like blaming myself, like there's something wrong with me or whatever, all the other PhD graduates, I’m sure they get jobs right away. You know, all those things are mine say, um, when I held my own stress. In this kind of warm, friendly, uh, embrace or like a friend, it just made it easier to bear. And so, um, then I, luckily I did eventually get a job, took a couple of years, but I landed up at UT Austin. Um, and I thought, wow, that this works. Um, but no one's researched it. So, I mean, you know, obviously I didn't come up with the idea. It's a lot of, I think a lot of spiritual traditions are just even kind of basic psychology, the ideas there, but no one had really, um, examined it and I was really interested. So what had happened is I did two years of postdoctoral study with a self esteem researcher. And I was really interested in, well, what's the difference between self-compassion and self esteem? Like, psychology was all about self esteem, but no one had really talked about self-compassion. That inspired me to, um, try to figure out what it is, to define it, to measure it, and start research on it. Um, and then eventually, kind of going all the way around, so, um, 25 years later, realizing the implications for all parts of life, including You know, kind of where, why I got into it in the first place for stress. But what happens with burnout is when you aren't able to deal with your stress, when it overwhelms you, that kind of stress gets the better of you, beats you down. That's when we kind of become exhausted and detached and we feel incompetent, i. e. we get burnt out. And so I just thought, you know, I should write a book, it was right after the pandemic, write a book on self-compassion and burnout. [00:07:56] Jeff Hunt: Yeah, well, it’s such a great resource, and I think many people don’t think of self-compassion when they are thinking about burnout. That's right. It feels like they get stuck in this place, and they really don’t know what the strategies are to heal from it. And Yeah. I’m wanting you to share about that, but I also am interested in having you give us more of a definition because I think there's thousands of people listening that are going to be maybe defining burnout in different ways. So maybe you can cut through the noise on some of that. [00:08:32] Kristin Neff: Yeah. Well, how about if I give a definition of self-compassion or do I want the definition of burnout first or the definition of self-compassion first? Because most people probably have a mistaken idea of what I mean by that. [00:08:43] Jeff Hunt: That sounds great. And maybe you can not only give the definition of self-compassion, but share about what it isn't because that’s an issue as well. [00:08:52] Kristin Neff: Yeah, absolutely. And then we can talk about what burnout is and why self-compassion is so well suited to helping us cope with the feelings of burnout. Um, so self-compassion, you know, if you break down the Latin word compassion, compassion means with, passion means suffering. So it’s basically, how are we with suffering? How do we show up for suffering? And typically we think of it, how do we show up for the suffering of others? You know, are we helpful? Are we supportive? Are we understanding? Uh, do we say, you know, poor you, which is pity. It's not compassion. Or do we say, Hey, I've been there. So, um, you know, that, that sense of there's a, there's really three elements to self, that the compassion also self-compassion is recognizing. The sufferings present, you know, if you just like drive by that person, person without a housing down the street, you can't have compassion for them. You got to notice why they're having a hard time. There's a sense of like warmth, wanting to help in some way, or at least kind of support the person in some way, even if it’s just with a friendly smile. And there's a sense of connectedness again. That could be meaning of the circumstances. They're a human being. I’m a human being. So that’s really what goes into self-compassion again. Mindfulness. We need to be mindful. You, and it’s, in some ways it’s easier to notice when other people are struggling than ourselves, it seems counterintuitive, but what happens is when we’re really stressed, we’re really upset about something, all of our resources are devoted to trying to solve the problem and it’s hard to step out of that problem solving mode and say, wow. I’m really having a hard time. Maybe I need a little help here. Am I okay? You know, just the way you write with a friend, you see, you know, a friend, she tells you a problem. Maybe you want to try to help them, but you also kind of maybe give them a hug and say, I’m so sorry, I’m here for you. You know, all that, all that other stuff you give to a friend. It's hard to remember to give that to ourself. So we need to be mindful. Uh, also remembering our common humanity. The brain is funny. The brain has this tendency to Feel like kind of irrationally, I’m the only person in the world going through this air. You think it’s not rational or logical, but emotionally it feels like everyone else, all these vague others are living a normal problem free life. And it’s just me who's having this stress or this difficulty. And that makes us feel isolated and alone. And then, so, so, so we need to be mindful, we need to remember our humanity, and then we need to be, uh, warm, kind, supportive to ourself, actually, go, instead, you know, instead of judging or blaming ourself, which is often our go to response, because we’re trying to control ourselves through harsh blame and judgment, we actually say, Okay. Yeah. You mean, how can I help? Sort of like, you’re so stupid. How could you do this? It's like, how can I help? I believe in you. You know, what can we do? Let's think of some creative solutions. How can we learn and grow from this situation, which is much more helpful. So that’s self-compassion. Um, it’s not self esteem. Self esteem is a judgment or an evaluation of worth. And it’s a, you know, Comparative often, we feel good when we’re special and above average, or we feel good about ourselves when we succeed, but not when we fail. So self-compassion, there's a sense of self worth in there, but it’s unconditional. Again, it comes from our very humanity. I’m a human being who's intrinsically worthy of consideration and kindness and support, like all human beings are. But if I’m a good friend to myself, then that just kind of comes from the inside. So it’s actually more stable than self esteem because you still have it when you make that sale or make that deal, or when you don’t. Really? So, so it’s a much more stable source of self worth. Um, it’s also not, um, the, the number one misconception about self-compassion is that it’s just going easy on yourself. [00:12:53] Jeff Hunt: Mm. [00:12:54] Kristin Neff: i. e. maybe letting yourself off the hook, not trying so hard, you know, kind of undermining your motivation. The research shows us the exact opposite, the exact opposite. It actually increases taking responsibility and um, motivation. Now it does mean that we are harsh with ourself, we are cold to ourself, we are belittling to ourself, which actually. Doesn't help. It just detracts you from the task at hand. It's like with an employee, you don’t say, you stupid idiot. It's going to make it harder for them to do their job. But of course you say, Hey, this isn't working very well. What can we do to like, help you find a way to, you know, fix this problem or to learn? growth in the situation. The same thing with ourselves. So when we take an attitude of encouragement with ourselves, first of all, we’re more willing to take personal responsibility because our self esteem is contingent on it. I don’t have to blame other people if my worth isn't dependent on my success. I can say, Oh, wow, I made a mistake. Well, that’s what human beings do. It doesn't mean that I’m a mistake. You know, so again, how can I learn? How can I grow from this situation? And then this, this. The, um, using encouragement with ourself actually is more effective in helping us learn and grow from our mistakes. We're less afraid of failure, for instance, we’re more willing to take learning risks. And then ultimately, for instance, I did a study with NCAA athletes that showed teaching them to be self-compassionate about their setbacks actually improve their athletic performance. Cause again, they were in a better mind state to actually perform at their best. Wow. So, um, there's, there's more misconceptions, but that kind of gives you, uh, the sense of it. And there's, there's so much research showing its benefits. I think like 8, 000 studies now, it’s just crazy how much research there is. [00:14:42] Jeff Hunt: Incredible. We really based even just on that. If you’re somebody who really cares about the evidence, we should be paying attention to this because of the result that it can have. [00:14:51] Kristin Neff: Yeah. People are more productive, for instance, you know, it’s really what, what's the ultimate benefit. Mind state to be effective, productive, and to be able to learn and grow. Well, warmth, support, encouragement, knowing you aren't alone, being aware, being awake, all those things actually help you do your best. You know, calling yourself names, shaming yourself, it’s not exactly the most effective mind state. And yet somehow we think it'll help. [00:15:20] Jeff Hunt: Yes, that’s right. [00:15:21] Kristin Neff: It's not we don’t want to beat ourselves for beating, beat ourselves up for beating ourselves up. It's, it’s natural. Actually, the brain is kind of designed to be going to fight, fight or freeze when it sees a problem. And so we fight ourselves, we kind of flee into shame and we kind of freeze and we ruminate. So it’s a natural safety response, but it’s just not very helpful or effective is the main problem with it. [00:15:45] Jeff Hunt: No, not at all. And I’m reflecting on a couple of things based on what you said. One is that your reference to NC2A athletes and their ability to have compassion, which I’m sure also parlays into professional athletics. But what comes to mind is the athletes that make mistakes and quickly bounce back. It almost feels like they have a mini dose of self-compassion in that moment. I’m thinking of like one of the best three point shooters of all time, which is Steph Curry. And I've learned in watching him over the years that if he, if he misses a three point shot, he's immediately back in the game. He doesn't dwell on it. He doesn't beat himself up. And that seems like a relevant sort of metaphor to people in the business world where. They may make mistakes or they're trying to achieve big things and they have setbacks, right? [00:16:37] Kristin Neff: Absolutely. And you know, failure is our best teacher. It's not a truism. It is true. So what are you going to do when you fail or have a setback? Are you going to spend all your time and effort and resources blaming yourself, shaming yourself, making yourself more anxious, you know, maybe overreacting to things? Or are you going to say, okay, it happens? Does it mean that I’m a bad person? Now, how can, how might I do something differently next time? By the way, with the athletes, we didn't even call it self-compassion because it’s not, you know, it’s not kind of like the most tough word. [00:17:14] Jeff Hunt: sure [00:17:14] Kristin Neff: We just called it inner strength training. And that’s really what self-compassion is. You give yourself strength when you are. Are you a friend? Are you an ally? Are you an enemy? Think about it. If you’re an ally to yourself, if you’re a friend, if you have your own back, if you’re supportive, you’re going to be stronger and more resilient than if you’re an enemy. If you cut yourself down, if you shame yourself, I mean, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s so obvious if we think about it, but again, there are reasons why we don’t tend to think about it because of the way the brain works. It has a very strong negativity bias. It's trying to control things that are kind of the most simplest manner, which is we kind of think. That we’re going to force ourselves to do better by being really mean to ourselves. And also, our culture doesn't support it, which is something I’m trying to change. It's slowly changing. [00:18:05] Jeff Hunt: Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s really great. So before we hit the record button, we were talking about internal family systems and you were mentioning how Dick Schwartz is going to come speak at one of your future events. And I've interviewed several, uh, guests on this podcast about this topic and its applicability in the workplace. And one of the things that I’m reflecting on is that this inner critic of ours is really a part, a part of ourselves, isn't that? And if we can mindfully pay attention to what this part is saying and approach this part with some loving compassion, some loving self-compassion. Yes. And let this part of ourselves know that we've got it and we can maybe can move this feeling from self, um, critic or being self critical to one of self-compassion or the critic to the advocate. So if I have an internal advocate who's pulling for me, then that feels healthier. [00:19:06] Kristin Neff: Yeah. I mean, so if, if in Dick Schwartz's model, I think even goes further, he talks about that. We have parts of ourselves. We might have an inner critic. We might have manager parts and we have parts that hold these feelings of shame or inadequacy. And then we also have self with like a capital S. And so in other words, when we are feeling compassionate toward ourself, it’s not really coming from a part, it’s coming from our big self. Right. Right. And, and so when we are in this. When we are coming from big self, we’re clear, we’re calmer, we’re more curious, we’re more compassionate. So you can almost, I mean, Dick and I come at this very different angles, but it’s really saying something very similar. You stop. So my model, um, you have mindfulness versus over identification with thoughts and emotions, which you might think of as being blended with the part or the reactions of a part. You know, we feel, um, connected as opposed to feeling isolated. The parts, they often feel isolated and cut off from the whole, which is why it’s so scary for them. Well, you’re coming from big self. You know, you’re, it’s kind of bigger than the parts. And then of course the warmth and the kindness versus the judgment. So you could almost think of it as self leadership that, that Dick Schwartz talks about when you’re, you’re making your decisions primarily from the centered place of self as opposed to these parts with their agendas and their limited points of view. That's really what self-compassion is. [00:20:35] Jeff Hunt: I'd like to pause the episode to tell you about an online workshop Dr. Kristen Neff is hosting on Saturday, April 12th, 2025, from 11am to 2. 15pm Central Time, titled Self Compassion for Work Stress and Burnout. In this session, Dr. Neff will share practical tools to help you reduce stress, prevent burnout, and foster a healthier work life balance through self-compassion. The workshop is open to everyone, including mental health professionals, and registrants will have access to the recording for 60 days. Register by March 29th for a 10 percent early bird discount or save 25 percent as a self-compassion community member. Learn more and sign up at self-compassion. org. Now, back to the show. Now, if we go back to this concept of performance, high performance, and self-compassion. They are not at odds, and I’m wanting to learn a little bit more from you about why this is not true. Those live together. [00:21:35] Kristin Neff: Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, it’s athletes, we've looked at leaders, for instance, leaders are more effective, rated as more effective leaders on this, employees are more productive in the workplace when they have self-compassion, you know, and again, it. If you just break it down, it makes such intuitive sense. You don’t even need to know the hundreds of research studies, although there are. It just makes sense. If you have some setback or some failure or you’re struggling or you’re stressed or there's some challenge you’re facing in the workplace, to get through that challenge and navigate it, what we need to do is identify what the issue is, We need to learn from it and we need to grow from it and then actually, you know, what increasing performance is, is you learn from your mistakes and you do a little better next time, right? That's how things work. But if, if what happens when you fail or get a setback or make a mistake, instead of learning and growing from it, all your focus and attention is on your self worth. I’m a failure. No one's gonna like me, or I’m so embarrassed, or what does it say about me, and I’m incompetent, and you know, and I’m saying that in a calm tone, but often it’s a much more agitated tone, and so we get upset, we get stressed, and then when we’re upset, and we’re stressed, and we’re kind of, really inward looking, we aren't seeing, we aren't even asking the question, Hmm, what could I learn from this? You know, and we don’t have enough awareness to be able to notice, Oh, well, I, I, I realized that’s maybe what I didn't do so well. Maybe if I didn't do that differently, we take it personally. When we take things personally, it’s much harder for us to learn from, um, the situation and to, to change from it. So what self-compassion does is it allows you to learn and grow, uh, without taking things personally, it gives you the strength to try to take risks. Without fear of failure, which is so important, especially if you want to be a real high performer, you have to be a risk taker. But if you know it’s not safe to take risks, because if you take, do something risky and you fail, you’re going to slam yourself, you know, shame yourself. Who's going to want to take a risk in that case? But if you have this like, it’s like this safety net that we provide ourselves. And so, you know, so what does it mean if I do make a mistake? Does that mean I just say, Oh, well. I lost five million for my customers. It happens for everyone. It's not, it’s not like that. We take things seriously. We take actually more responsibility. Um, And if you have self-compassion, if you do do something like lose a lot of money for people who depended on you, uh, what's going to allow you to try to repair the situation more effectively? If you shame yourself, I’m just horrible, maybe I'll just quit or maybe I'll run away or go to something like that. Or to say, first of all, you got, you got to hold the pain of that like, wow. I really messed up. Okay, that’s, that’s a hard one to hold. Being able to hold it, you need someone who's got your back. You can have your own back. So to fully acknowledge it. Hold it. Be with it. You need the self-compassion. And then to be able to learn from it, you need to identify with the failure, but actually be able to kind of like detach a little bit and kind of say, wow, what happened? You know, and that what happened that you need the curiosity to be able to learn and figure out. I see what happened. I wonder if I was to do this differently, if that would work or who do I need to talk to do repair the situation? It just kind of frees up, um, your, your. You might say your working memory space, your, your, uh, your ability, it frees up your attention and your awareness to learn what you need to learn and to focus on what needs to be done. Shaming yourself and just putting yourself down into a little corner doesn't really help anyone. [00:25:40] Jeff Hunt: Not at all. That latter example is just so much more productive than the former example. And I was thinking of. There are so many examples of coaches and teachers that really take this aggressive, punitive approach. And it’s also true in business with leaders. You have people who They, they don’t have compassion for others when they make a mistake. And I’m wanting you to speak to that group for a minute. And I’m also curious about if that group is typically having a hard time having their own self-compassion, because how can you have compassion for others if you’re not having compassion for yourself? [00:26:21] Kristin Neff: Yeah. Well, so it’s interesting empirically, there are some people actually quite a lot of people who are pretty compassionate to others. And really hard on themselves. There's almost no one who's compassionate to themselves and not to others. So in other words, the harder you are in yourself, you'll be even less compassionate to others. But it’s not actually true that you have to be self-compassionate first because most people are that way. You know, there's a lot of really good, kind, compassionate, caring people who treat themselves like crap. But you don’t necessarily go in hand in hand, but they always go in the direction of treating yourself worse than others. But so one of the reasons. We are really harshly critical of people. I mean, if you’re a parent, are you a parent, Jeff? Yes. So, I mean, sometimes our instincts, especially when our kids are young, it’s just like yell at that kid to get them to pay attention. And it kind of works. I mean, that’s the thing. Those coaches, for instance, those maybe NFL coaches who could get their results by yelling. People will pay attention and if they're scared of you, they will focus and they will kind of do their work. And it’s not like it doesn't work at all. We wouldn't do it if it didn't work, but it doesn't work as effectively as support and encouragement. Now, again, this is why we need the mindfulness. It would not be mindful. Wouldn't be honest to say it’s not a problem. If it is, that’s not mindfulness. That's just sugarcoating. Self-compassion is not sugarcoating. The mindfulness says, Wow, that really didn't work. It, you know, really, really, really did not work. That was not okay, or that, you know, wasn't effective. But, just because that, that’s not okay, doesn't mean that you’re not okay. Just because the decision didn't work out, doesn't mean like you’re worthless. It's that coming from a place of, I believe in you, um, how can I support you? You know, with, with still holding very, very clear boundary, very, uh, uh, clear, um, standards. So self-compassionate people, their standards are just as high. If you care. Your standards are going to be high. If you care about your work, if you care about your employees, your standards are going to be high and you know, a negligent indulgent parent, isn't really a caring parent, a caring parent says, I believe in you. You can do this high standards, but supports people to get to them, to those, um, standards, especially when they have a setback. So it’s very similar, whether you’re, you know, mentoring an employee, whether you’re parenting someone or whether you’re acting. With yourself, the same principles apply. Honest feedback, clear feedback, kind, supportive, encouraging, helpful feedback is going to be most effective. [00:29:12] Jeff Hunt: Okay. If somebody hasn't received compassion from others when they were growing up or in their family of origin, is it harder for them to develop self-compassion? [00:29:21] Kristin Neff: Um, I’m not going to lie. It is. So, you know, this is often modeled for it. So if we weren't treated with compassion and respect, uh, unlike that we really counted, then we tend to internalize those messages. And if we were very harshly criticized, for instance, we often internalize the message. That, that’s a good way to be with ourselves. So early family history does have an impact. That's kind of the bad news on how we are as adults. Uh, the good news, and by the way, this really surprised me. Anyone can learn it, right? So, you know, it, it may be a little more challenging. There may be some fear, um, invoked sometimes, especially if your parents were like. Really harsh than even opening the door of your heart may like be kind of scary. So sometimes it really helps to do this with the therapist if that is your history. But you can learn to hold the pain of how you were raised with compassion is usually the best place to start. And then once you start having compassion, maybe for your, your childlike self or the way you were treated. Then you can start questioning, you know, well, is it true? Somehow my worth is less than that of others. No, that’s not true. You know, maybe you can have compassion for your parents and what led them to act the way they did. Um, but you can, you can learn, you can relearn this skill, especially with, you know, what we’re finding in the research is all therapy teaches self-compassion in a way that’s what therapy is. A therapist helps you have understanding and clarity, um, and warmth and kindness towards your issues. That's, that’s what good therapy is. So it can be very, very helpful to have someone help you along the way. Yeah. Any, anyone can learn. Even people with like severe, um, abuse histories, you know, if, if you’re, if you’re going to be strong enough to survive something like that, that means your heart in some ways is pretty strong. And often that kind of comes out toward others. Yeah. So it’s not like you don’t have any experience of it, but typically your experience is toward others. We just have to learn to turn the lens of compassion inward. So it’s great. It's not learning the completely new skill. It's just learning to apply it, to have a new application of the skill we already have. [00:31:45] Jeff Hunt: Sure. That's so great. It provides hope for everybody, and I’m also just reflecting on that for people that are having a hard time understanding how much self-compassion do I really have. You've developed a self-compassion scale, and that really helps people understand their relationship with self-compassion. Say a little bit about that. [00:32:06] Kristin Neff: Yeah. So back in, uh, early 2000s when I wanted to research self-compassion, I just created a scale, 26 item scale with very straightforward questions that measure, you know, how judgmental isolated and over identified you are versus how kind, um, connected and mindful you are. And if you’re interested, you can go to my website at selfcompassion. org and take the scale there. It'll give you a, give you your results. It could be helpful just to kind of see, even just to ask yourself the questions, well, how do I treat myself? Some people have never even considered it. It's like the voice inside our own heads. We're so used to it. We never even stop to think, huh. Is that a helpful voice or not? A very useful thing to do is to say, there's a couple of things. Would you say to your good friend what you just said to yourself? [00:32:57] Jeff Hunt: It's a good acid test. [00:32:59] Kristin Neff: Well, what did you say to your good friend? Probably something a little different. And so the good news is, is you already know what to say. Just imagine, what would I say to my really good friend if they had the exact same experience that I just had, or failure, or setback, whatever it was. And then say something similar to yourself. Again, it’s not rocket science. We know how to do it. We just aren't in the habit of doing it with ourselves. [00:33:22] Jeff Hunt: Sure. And speaking of the habit, you mentioned earlier that, you know, there are ways to grow this competency, this strength, this muscle internally. And you also mentioned there's three components of self-compassion, mindfulness. Kind of the common humanity and then kindness. Yes. I’m wanting you to talk about each of these, mindfulness, common humanity, and kindness, and then share with our listeners what are the strategies they can use to develop self-compassion. [00:33:50] Kristin Neff: Okay. And then we'll move on to burnout. We almost forgot about burnout. The three core components of self-compassion are mindfulness, common humanity, and kindness. We also need to start with mindfulness. We need to become aware of our suffering in order to be with ourselves in a helpful, supportive way. So it, It means instead of being just lost in our pain, or, you know, ignoring it and shoving it down and pretending it doesn't exist, it simply means acknowledging it. Okay, I’m having a hard time, or this hurts, or this is what's going on right now. So we turn our awareness, uh, inward. And then we have to remember. That is very human, whatever, whatever it is, we’re experiencing is very human. There's almost nothing that happens has to happen to millions of other people, right? And remembering this, that the human experience is by definition an imperfect one to be human doesn't actually mean to get it right. It means to often get it wrong. You know, life is challenging for everyone. And so, you know, again, it’s something that’s. Um, we all know it, but we don’t remember it. So remembering our humanity and framing our experience in light of our humanity, this helps us to feel less disconnected and helps us feel more, um, part of the larger whole, which is an important flavor of compassion, feeling less alone, feeling like, you know, instead of thinking we’re normal or, or fatally flawed, it’s like, Oh no, I am normal. I’m a flawed work in progress. Like all other 7 billion of us, right? Um, and then the kindness. So kindness can take different forms. Sometimes kindness is, has more of a softer of nurturing quality, kind of soothing, comforting, reassuring. Um, but sometimes kindness can be like more mama bear. You know, sometimes the love needs to be tough love, like if we need to like get out of a really harmful relationship or behaviors that are harmful, you know, we can, we can validate ourselves. But what the kind thing to do is to say, get off that sofa and do something or make a change. You know, I know it’s scary, but you got to do it. It's kind of that more bravery that comes into it. So, um, that’s really the. Uh, the sense of wanting to support ourself in whatever form that takes. And so one easy practice you can do to practice self-compassion is just to bring in the three elements. You know, just become mindful of the fact that you’re struggling. This really hurts. This is hard right now. Say something to yourself like, I’m not alone. Um, it’s, it’s human for this to happen. This actually connects me to other people as opposed to isolating me from other people. And then just some words of kindness. You might think, well, what would I say to a friend who is struggling to support them right now? What would they need to hear? And then you can say, well, actually, what do I need to hear? And then you can give yourself that same supportive message. It's called the self-compassion break. You can do it at work. You can do it in 30 seconds. You know, just bring in the three components. And what it does is it breaks you out of the mind state we’re normally in, which is when we’re lost in the difficult feelings. We're judging ourself. We're blaming ourself. We're shaming ourself. We're buying the storyline that our minds are generating. It kind of says, whoa, wait a second. Maybe there's a different way to look at this. Mindfulness, coven, humanity, and kindness. [00:37:18] Jeff Hunt: I love that. So as we shift and talk more about burnout, share just a little bit about how it affects certain professions more than others and also how can somebody really recognize when they're, they might be the cooked frog syndrome, they may be slowly moving into this state of burnout and not realizing it as much until something snaps. [00:37:40] Kristin Neff: Yeah. Well, so there are various symptoms of burnout. Um, so maybe just first to define what burnout is, then I'll maybe talk a little bit about how you can recognize it. So, um, I kind of like Maslow's definite, sorry, let me rephrase that. It's not Maslow. It is, um, Maslock. Okay. Okay. [00:38:01] Jeff Hunt: Mm hmm. [00:38:03] Kristin Neff: Maslow did the, anyway, I like Christina Maslow's definition of burnout, which is that there are three core components. Um, and by the way, burnout in general is just a stress response. It's what happens when the stressors were experiencing overwhelm, overwhelm our ability to cope with them. Right. So it’s kind of the, you know, the demand we aren't, we aren't able to cope with the demands of the situation. So one big, um, way it manifests is exhaustion. That's kind of maybe the most obvious part of burnout. We feel exhausted. We feel low energy or we just kind of feel like fried. Like, you know, we have a lot of energy, but we just, we can't hold it. It's not comfortable. We aren't relaxed. It's where energy is agitated or, or we’re really low energy. Um, one is feeling, uh, words, the word's called depersonalization, which is basically a fancy way of saying we don’t care as much. Ironically, people who care the most about their work are the ones that are more most likely to get burnt out because they do take it really seriously. They're invested. And so they're invested. They want to do well. They want things to work out. And then when, again, the situation overwhelms our ability to cope with them. One of the natural ways to respond is just by carrying a little bit less, we kind of go numb. You know, maybe we aren't feeling the stress we used to because we just numbed herself out from it. Or maybe we’re just sleeping all day, which is another way of not dealing all the stress. Maybe we care a little bit less about the people we work with because it’s just easier that way. Again, we don’t do this consciously. We just naturally shut down because it’s too much for us. We get overwhelmed. It's too much for us to cope with. So we stopped caring a little bit less about others, about ourselves, about someone's life in general. So we get kind of numb and hollowed out. Uh, and then the third one. Feelings of incompetence because we think we’re supposed, especially if we’re really normally a highly competent, effective people, we think we’re supposed to handle it. I should be able to handle this and I’m not able to handle this and we feel shame. Because we can't, we feel like there's something wrong with us that we, you know, again, that I should be able to handle it and it’s my fault or, and even if we like maybe blame the circumstances, there's a little voice in our head that says, maybe if he had just been a little smarter or a little stronger or a little, you know, whatever it, you wouldn't be in this situation you are now. And this is just, we’re just trying to control the situation. It's almost feels better. The thing that I could have been able to handle it, but something's wrong with me, then that’s the reason I couldn't handle it. Then, you know, sometimes life is just too big for us. And we can't always handle, that’s the truth. We can't handle everything. We aren't in control. That's so scary that it’s almost easier to think you should be able to be in control and it’s my fault if I’m not. So those are the three main, uh, elements of burnout. And again, so how do you know? Sometimes it’s very obvious. You just feel very low energy. You don’t go want to get out of bed. I mean, you feel numb, you feel kind of disassociated. Sometimes you might be really agitated, again, which is a little bit, a little more high energy form. But if you’re really irritable all the time, for instance, that’s kind of the way this Unmanaged stress is, is manifesting, um, can manifest as health problems. There's a big, um, correlation between stress and, um, the way your nervous system works. For instance, you may be sleeping less and that also contributes. So, um, really just when you aren't yourself as much anymore, you just, you. You know, slowly over time, again, maybe you don’t notice the sudden change, but you just don’t care as much. You just aren't as enthused as you used to be. You aren't, you know, your demeanor isn't quite the same as it used to be. You're just feeling like in over your head all the time. All that, and by the way, all that is. So human, that’s not only the human is like literally isn't at this point. So it was more common than not because of the incredible stress of life. So how does self-compassion work? So first of all, the mindfulness is so important because it allows us to be aware that we’re burned out. If we aren't aware that we’re burnt out or that we’re overwhelmed, how are we going to do anything about it? [00:42:32] Jeff Hunt: Right. [00:42:33] Kristin Neff: Right. So, um, the mindful awareness allows us to be kind of more in touch with our feelings of overwhelm. Um, the remembering that we aren't alone, uh, is, is so important because, uh, you know, that, that sense of. incompetence, that there's something wrong with us, there's something normal with us. It really helps that once we realize, Oh, wait a second, this is how human beings react when they're overwhelmed. Does it mean there's anything wrong with me? You don’t have to feel so incompetent. We don’t have, we don’t have to take it so personally again. Self-compassion helps us take things a little more personally and that’s really important when we’re experiencing burnout because usually it’s just the circumstances that are arising that are, that are, um, too extreme. And then, um, the kindness is really important for countering the depersonalization. So again, we shut down our hearts. We kind of numb ourselves out when it’s too much for us to bear. When we hold our own hearts, like right now, if you can't see me, I’m putting my hands over my heart because this is actually one really nice way to give yourself-compassion. Literally putting your hands over your heart center, holding yourself. I’m here for you. I’m with you. I got you. Right? And this allows us to, um, open our hearts a little bit again to, when we start caring for ourselves, it gives us the strength that we need to keep caring about our work or to keep caring about the other people in our lives. And really importantly, we like to say that the quintessential self-compassion question is, what do I need right now to be well? Think when a friend comes to you and they're upset, you say, Oh, what do you need? How can I help? Like, that’s like, that’s the expression of compassion. We say that to ourselves. What do I need right now? Well, actually, maybe I need a nap. Or maybe I need to break or maybe I need to have a talk with my boss or who knows what you need. And maybe I need to go on strike. I mean, it doesn't necessarily look one way or the other, right? But just asking the question, what do I need to be? Well, it’s really, really important. And that comes from the kindness of self-compassion, that encouragement, that sense of. Um, you know, I, I got your back and then also again, that, that learning orientation that’s so central to self-compassion, what can I learn from this? You know, something obviously isn't working right. If I’m totally burnt out, what might I do differently? You know, what are the lessons here? Maybe I took on too much. Maybe I expanded too fast. Maybe, you know. Who knows, who knows what it is, but in order to get out of burnout, we’re going to have to figure out what happened and try something else, try something else out. I should also mention that, that, that mama bear self-compassion I talked about, by the way, does not gender specific, that kind of. Fierce compassion. That's also part of getting out of burnout, because sometimes it is the organization or the system or the powers that be. So sometimes we need to have the bravery and the courage to say, this is not okay. This is harmful to me. I need to stand up for myself. Speak up, make a change, like maybe you’re a health worker, you know, and you'd be crushed by the paperwork. Maybe you need to stand up and make a change to the system. It's not only about an internal change, changing the system is also an act of self-compassion. [00:46:06] Jeff Hunt: So yeah, well, and you have so many great stories in the book that illustrate that. So I just want to point that out. And before we move into some lightning round questions and finish up, I, I want to ask you about. Uh, the, the leader who might see one or more of their high performing employees exhibit symptoms of burnout and what advice or strategies do you have for them? [00:46:32] Kristin Neff: Um, yeah. So I think one, one really important thing is just to be aware of it because again, it could sneak up on you. Especially if you’re in a job that, you know, is kind of stressful and takes a lot of energy and you can be doing pretty well, then all of a sudden at some point the demands become greater than your ability to cope with it. And then what you’re going to do is a natural reaction is you’re going to shut down, you know, burnout and getting burnout is a natural reaction. To being overwhelmed by the stressors of the task at hand or from life in general. And so being aware of it, Hey, you know, you’re doing a great job. We're going to keep it up, but you know, you have to be a little careful because you, I’m kind of suspecting maybe it’s going to, is it a little too much? I mean, I’m not a manager, so don’t let, you know, don’t listen, don’t take this too literally, but in terms of. You know, talking to them about the fact that burnout may be an issue and really, really important. First of all, you want to humanize it because remember most people in our self esteem driven culture that employ might think, Oh, that guy's not burned out or she's not burned out. Does this mean something's wrong with me? So really framing it in terms of our common humanity, it’s very, very human to start getting burned out. If we’re going at it too hard, too fast. Um, it’s really important that you take care of yourselves, you know, the, you treat yourself with the same, you know, kindness, care, and respect that you would treat any of your fellow employees here, what do you think you need? to make sure that you are, you’re resourcing yourself. In other words, instead of giving the message that all your resources and energy should be going toward the job, it’s really important that some of your resources or energy are turned inward to make sure that you’re OK, that you’re well, ask yourself again, what do you need right now? Really validating that in order to give outward, we need to give inward. If we just breathe out and not in, we’re going to die. [00:48:28] Kristin Neff: We need to resource ourself with compassion so that we can do our work in the world. And again, it’s kind of obvious, but somehow we forget it. If you just give and you give and you give, you’re going to, you’re going to run dry. [00:48:42] Jeff Hunt: Sure. Sure. [00:48:43] Kristin Neff: So maybe just, you know, having a conversation about some of that because remembering that a lot of people in our culture, I think especially American culture, we’re given kudos for working all nighters and not sleeping. And, you know, it’s like, it’s a self esteem thing. Oh, I must be a good person if I’m, you know, working all night or I’m so tired, I can barely speak or, you know, that’s about means that I really care and just kind of changing the culture of that and say, no, actually we care about is really long, long term productivity and being able to learn and grow from whatever we’re doing. And in order to do that, we need to have a culture of compassion and self-compassion, not a culture of work till you drop. [00:49:28] Jeff Hunt: Mm hmm. That's such good advice. Okay, Kristen. So we’re going to switch into the lightning round question. So I’m going to ask you a question. Very simple. And you give me your top of mind response. And the first one is what are you most grateful for? [00:49:43] Kristin Neff: Ah, first top of response is my mother, my 83 year old mother lives next to me, I built an addition on my house for so it’s so lovely. You know, the last years of her life that we’re able to spend this time together. So very nice. [00:49:58] Jeff Hunt: Very nice. Uh, what's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career? [00:50:05] Kristin Neff: Ah, that I’m actually not a great leader. I actually outsource that when I finally got a business manager who's better at it than I am. And so that’s great. I can do my self-compassion work. I can teach my workshops and I, I kind of realized what I was good at, what I wasn't so good at. And she's really great in managing people. So that’s good. [00:50:29] Jeff Hunt: Love that. Who is one person you would interview if you could, living or not? [00:50:36] Kristin Neff: Ah, well, you know, I always wanted to meet Thich Nhat Hanh. I didn't get a chance to meet him before he passed. So, um, because I really did learn about self-compassion from him. And he's just such an amazing teacher. So I would have liked to have had the time to meet him and interview him. [00:50:54] Jeff Hunt: Mm hmm. Do you have a top book recommendation for our listeners to read other than your new book? [00:51:02] Kristin Neff: Yeah. Other than my, my five books on self-compassion, you know, I am, I am a huge Dick Schwartz fan. I actually, I really do think the book, No Bad Parts, which is Dick's probably most popular book. To have a basic understanding of how our psychology works, how our parts work, the roles they play, which most people aren't really aware of, it makes a huge difference in kind of understanding and having compassion for why we act the way we do. So I’m going to give a shout out to No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz. [00:51:35] Jeff Hunt: Love that. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? [00:51:39] Kristin Neff: Ah, so, um, when I first got my job at, um, at UT Austin, I wanted to do the self-compassion research, but I didn't have tenure yet. And I had a mentor, a faculty mentor, and I said, I really kind of want to do this, but it’s a big risk and it’s kind of squishy. And is it too soft? It's not hard science. What are people going to think? Should I wait till I get tenure to research it? And he said, no, Kristen, if you’re passionate about it, you will do better research and you'll be more likely to get tenure, which is what happened. So he kind of encouraged me to. Step out, take a risk. And I did. And you know, the rest is history. [00:52:17] Jeff Hunt: Look what happened. What a great piece of advice. [00:52:20] Kristin Neff: Yeah. [00:52:20] Jeff Hunt: So as we close, Kristen, you've given us such a wealth of information. I just want to thank you, but I also want you to take a minute to just share a summary of maybe the one or two most important takeaways for our listeners from today. [00:52:34] Kristin Neff: Yeah. So again, if you are feeling burnt out, so you’re just feeling drained or you’re feeling cut off or less caring or I’m feeling incompetent, know that it’s human. It's a natural human response to stress. Don't beat yourself up for it. Um, instead think of it as an opportunity to practice self-compassion, right? So if you treat yourself with the same kindness, warmth, and support you'd show, naturally show to a friend, it will not only help you, but the research is also clear on this. It will help all aspects of your life. You'll become more productive. You'll sleep better. It'll be more physically healthy, and it will also improve your relationships. I mean, really the research is it’s like this wonder drug and it’s free. [00:53:21] Jeff Hunt: No, doubt. [00:53:22] Kristin Neff: you have to get insurance coverage for it? It's like the superpower sitting in our back pockets. We aren't even aware of it makes such a radical difference to our day to day living. We can just learn to be kind, warm and supportive toward ourselves as opposed to be harsh, harsh, cruel, and belittling. It just radically changes things. [00:53:42] Jeff Hunt: Mmm, such wonderful advice. So the last thing is you have an upcoming conference that you’re holding and what do you want to share about that? [00:53:52] Kristin Neff: Yeah, so it’s actually a workshop. So I’m teaching a three hour workshop on self-compassion for burnout. It's through the self-compassion community that I run and we put on workshops. And so if you’re interested in learning about self-compassion and in particular how Self-compassion can help reduce your feelings of burnout or prevent burnout. That's going to be on April, um, 12th at 11 central time. [00:54:20] Jeff Hunt: Perfect. [00:54:20] Kristin Neff: Just go to selfcompassion.org to sign up. You can also take the self-compassion test there. I also have a ton of free practices and information. Just Google self-compassion, you'll find me. [00:54:32] Jeff Hunt: Dr. Kristin Neff, thank you so much for coming on the show today. [00:54:35] Kristin Neff: Thanks. Thanks for having me, Jeff. I really enjoyed it.