1. Managing Partner, Jazz BC

Intro: Duration: (2:43)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Hi everybody this is Jeff Hunt with GoalSpan, and this is Human Capital. We get to interview thought leaders, business leaders, coaches who help us understand the value of human capital. Today I'm very excited to introduce my guest Jody who is the co-founder and managing partner of jazz business consulting. They are a team of business coaches who are passionate about helping leaders of mid-size companies uncover and resolve the drama and distractions that destroy profitability.

I love that – drama, distractions, and destroy so we're gonna learn about that. Her team has helped several companies win awards including the best places to work and the top places to work awards in the San Francisco Bay Area. Her clients perform at a level three times the average revenue growth rate compared with peers in their industries. That is impressive, and Jody says that the magic ingredient to helping organizations thrive is starting with the development of “Vibe”. Welcome, Jody!

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Thank you, it's good to be here with you Jeff.

I remember when we were sitting at a retreat years ago and you had the idea for your company, and now it's thriving as this global company. It's exciting to be doing this.

Jeff Hunt:

Yes, a lot of water into the bridge and some great experiences. And, it's been awesome to watch you sort of grow and develop your consultancy as well.

And, also to see the impact you've had on your clients. So really, really, impressive. So, I love this, jazz business consulting and your whole concept is “Vibe”. I'm excited to talk through that concept with our listening audience so that they can sort of learn what that is how it can impact them. I also have some other questions that I'm gonna throw at you and because I know that you've got an amazing amount of business wisdom. So you know, Jody's one of these people for all you listeners who when you spend time with them, they just make you better. What I found with Jody is she's really good at asking pointed questions that end up making her clients better, and the people that she works with better, and so today I get to turn the tables a little bit as I mentioned we're gonna learn about “Vibe”. But before we do I'm gonna start out with some interesting pointed personal questions.

Topic 1. Work Ethic and Entrepreneurship (2:43)

Jeff Hunt:

This first one is really about your experiences and so Jody, let's start out by having you share with our listeners something that is interesting about your family or your experiences growing up that led you into business.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Oh, that's great question. So, I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. My mom and dad owned a several companies and they were primarily in the construction space. So, my dad owned a company called Accent Countertops that manufactured kitchen countertops, and Corian, and then my mom opened a company and it was called The Marble Shop and she did culture marble manufacturing for bathrooms and bathtubs.

So, both my parents were licensed general contractors and I grew up driving forklifts out in the shop because all of us kids had to clean up sawdust at some point. It was mandatory for you to be a part of the family I guess and so a lot of fun memories of driving forklifts and near crashing them. But I think I learned early that manual labor is hard - it is really hard work and that I much more enjoyed the sales and management aspect of it.

Jeff Hunt:

So sure, but it sounds like you sort of learn how to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty and they were maybe a model to you in terms of inspiring entrepreneurship, is that right?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Very much so. I never knew them to work for anybody else and I can see that freedom that they had, but also the burden that you have as a business owner. You carry all the weight of the risk and so I think I have developed real empathy for business leaders that just carry that enormous weight every night when they go home. Are they gonna make payroll?, are they gonna keep their good talent? And how do you keep people happy once you have them. So, I have a real overt passion to support those people because I know just from my heart what that's like to carry that burden.

Jeff Hunt:

Sure, and it's almost as if COVID has turned everything into a petri dish where these types of issues are accentuated. It’s like a catalyst for change - would you agree with that?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Absolutely. It's funny, my clients kind of tease me because when I first start working with them, I always tell them get ready, get ready, get ready, because when we start working together and you become intentional about the kind of clarity that you want to pursue and what your priorities are, good things happen and they happen quickly. I had no idea but the last couple years of watching these teams get ready, get ready, get ready, enabled them to be so much more well prepared for COVID. They had addressed some of their infrastructure weaknesses and repaired them, and so now they're in these great positions to see some of the opportunities. But it breaks my heart to see some of these companies that just were not ready for it in anyway. So I think the lesson we've learned in this is you should always be getting ready for opportunities and that positions you so well not only for opportunities, but also to weather some of these storms that are happening.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah so those businesses and organizations that are much more proactive, it sounds like they ultimately are outperforming the ones that were not.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Yeah, yeah, several of our clients have actually grown during COVID. We were blessed to have a big portfolio of business that was really deemed essential services like construction, insurance, and healthcare. But even still some of those companies have really struggled during this that just didn't have the strength and their infrastructure originally. We went into this to help companies get strong so they'd be ready for growth. But you know, it was really revealed that that kind of strength helps you weather a downturn in the economy, a tough political climate, a market change. They've been able to pivot easily because everybody was aligned and on the same page. I absolutely agree this COVID has revealed where companies are either really strong or where they have weaknesses.

Topic 2. Core Values (7:20)

Jeff Hunt:

Okay so, one of the things you've just mentioned a minute ago was empathy, you know we're talking about your family experiences and entrepreneurship and all that, and having empathy for what you're folks went through in terms of being a business owner, that's actually a great segue to talk core values for a minute. With Jazz Business Consulting, what do you value most as an organization?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

That's a good question - that's a great question for everybody to be asking about their own companies, what do you value most. So we have three core values that we make every decision based on. It's how we do our hiring, it's how we do our development and rewards, it's how we partner with vendors. Those three core values came out of a discussion of the things we thought were important, and like Pat Lencioni says if everything is important nothing is.

So we had a rich discussion about what was most important if it really came down to sacrificing something. Those core values for us were connection with people. People skills are vital and the ability to have good conversations are just so important to what we do, so connection with people. Passion for what we do. I mean it’s fun to go to work every day when you're helping to win - there's nothing more exciting than winning.

Then the third one is results-oriented. You and I have seen so many consulting firms that will come in and consult all you know, all day long yeah, ultimately they don't necessarily help people achieve the end results that were most important to them. So we make a big commitment to figure out ways that we can actually pay for ourselves by helping clients achieve their financial goals for growth. Connection, passion, and results - it's the acronym CPR which sometimes is what we provide for companies.

Topic 3. Tough Questions and Difficult Performance Conversations (9:33)

Jeff Hunt:

That’s such an easy way to remember that as well. I think that people also underestimate the value of core values in terms of shaping culture and delivering results, so I really appreciate that you guys have taken the time to think that through. You know often times you're coming in to clients and you're starting work when they haven't thought about a lot of these things. You'll jump in and immerse yourself, understand their culture, which we're gonna talk more about with “Vibe” here in a minute, but what I'm curious about is what is maybe one of the toughest questions you've ever had to ask your clients?

So, you're sitting with the CEO and you've been privy to the dysfunction that's occurring internally, or you have seen a history and pattern of them not achieving the results. There could be any number of things that you're coming into help them with. Or, just like when we started out you were sharing with me about helping them resolving the drama and distractions that destroyed profitability so, you know, you're sitting with the CEO what's the what is one of those tough questions that might get you fired as a consultant, but really could make them significantly better. What comes to mind for you?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

There's one question that immediately came to mind it's not my question and I want to give credit to the author and I can't think of her name I want to say possibly her name is Jill Scott. She was a business coach out of the Seattle area. Her question, and I've used it a lot, and it has rocked a few people, and that is, after they tell me the circumstances of what the challenges are, whether it's growth or overcoming a crisis, I ask a lot of questions to really take things a level deeper to really uncover the real deal. One of the questions to get there has always been “what are you pretending not to know?”

Jeff Hunt:

Hmm, wow okay, so “what are you pretending not to know?”

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Yes. And that question has is one of those that it gets to the heart of the matter quickly because it forces facing a reality. And sometimes they're pretending not to know that a key person just isn't the right fit to take them to the next level. Or, that things are not going well in a project they have a lot of ego tied up in. Those are the kinds of things that just kind of pulls the layers back and gives them a safe place to say it out loud.

Jeff Hunt:

Absolutely. Yeah so really some of what this is about conflict avoidance, and people and even leaders are often very conflict avoidant because it's so uncomfortable. Yeah, I was thinking actually about this question as well and the late, great Jim Horan who of course passed away last year - he's the one who started the one page business plan, one of his questions that I've always appreciated is after getting to know the CEO and the culture asking well, “what is your role in this dysfunction?”

I love that question because that's right to the heart of the matter and if the CEO or the leader is defensive then oftentimes there's bigger issues at play if they're willing to dive deep just like you just said then they can come back with an answer that is going to help them grow and learn and really make improvements in organizations, so I really appreciate your question.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

That’s a good one too and I'm definitely going to be using that one.

Jeff Hunt:

Staying on this this concept of difficult conversations what advice can you share about having difficult performance conversations with remote workers? You're working with these clients all day long, many of them have you know art essential businesses and some have retained employees onsite and I imagine some have transitioned to segment of their workforce to remote. When you think about these situations where managers do need to address underperformance, what advice can you share with them about how to do that effectively?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Well, boy, that's a full question in and of itself. How to address performance issues, how to deal with remote workers, but generally speaking if they're on Zoom they are not people out the field doing manual labor they're more of a white-collar kind of position. So, that in itself changes the dynamic a little bit. Sure. So, let me address the first one and that's how to have the hard performance conversations.

So often I find that when I get called in for help and somebody is underperforming, I will ask the questions: “What have you done so far? How have you addressed this so far?” I find a couple of things and one of them is that often times managers have thought about the problem so much, and have rehearsed the conversation, and had conversations in their head, that they sort of make this mental assumption that the person they're talking to is caught up.

But the truth is they're the ones that have had the conversation in their head mulling it over, and over, and over, and over. The person they're talking to they haven't even had the conversation with. Mostly, to be respectful or honoring or to treat them like an adult, they've implied things or made suggestions, but they haven't come right down and said can I say the hard thing? “This isn’t working like we need it to work.” So that's one thing.

I remember one of our coaches sat in on a termination one time and the person being terminated said “I am so surprised. I had no idea you felt like this. Why haven't you told me this?” And the CEO said we've had numerous conversations and she said, I think you've had them in your head. I don't think you've ever talked to me about this, and that was a real enlightening conversation. Have you actually had those conversations?

The second thing I find that is what we would call a “Vibe killer” is not being clear about the expectations to begin with. There is a real lack of clarity out in the business world about what the priority is. It's interesting the word priority was never meant to be plural, because if it's plural it sorts of makes it irrelevant, right? If everything's important nothing is.

And so, if leaders go around and ask their employees, “what do you think is the most important thing that needs to happen in the next six to 12 months in this company,” they could see what kind of answers they would get. If they're getting different answers, then people are making decisions based on different criteria. That's a very common problem, so I would encourage listeners to just go ask their people.

“What do you think is the most important thing?” Because if somebody has a stack of ten things on their desk, if they don't have real clarity about the priority, they're gonna make it up, they’re going to guess. And, we don't want employees guessing about to what the priority is. So that's another big “Vibe-killer” is the lack of clarity about what's most important.

Topic 4. Establishing Company Priorities (17:57)

Jeff Hunt:

Wow, that's great feedback, so really it's around communicating effectively, and openly, and frequently so that there are not surprises, because we should never be in a termination session when that employee does not know what was happening. And, just really paying attention to what's most important. So, it sounds like what you're saying is that we really need to understand what is most important and the priorities, and then communicate that in a way so that there is never questions to employees about their role, and what that priority should be for them. Is that right?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Absolutely. And what that does is it plants the seed, one, for accountability on down the road because you have something to refer back to. But it also sets up this culture for healthy teams, and healthiest teams have peer-to-peer accountability. Not this top-down dictatorship where I'm the police all the time.

I'd like to use this metaphor which a lot of parents will get. If you go grocery shopping, and let's say your kids are between three and six years old, and they're going to be in the car while your grocery shopping. A really effective parent would say to the kids “Okay we're going grocery shopping we have about 20 things to get. I want to get those things, and what I need from you is not to dump a bunch of cookies and stuff in the cart when I'm not looking, not to fight, not to beg me for stuff. I need you to help me make it really a quick and easy process and at the end, if it goes well, we're going to get ice cream.” Every parent knows that sets up those kids for success, and yet we don't do it in business at all. And, it's not treating people like adults, it's saying here's where we're going, here's what success looks like, and when we all get there together, here's how we'll celebrate. People don't do that. What they do is the equivalent of throw in tired cranky kids “overworked employees” that don't have clarity, into a grocery cart going grocery shopping for an hour and a half, and at the end being exasperated that the kids were challenging.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that concept because really it's so simplistic. You can boil it down to this level of simplicity for businesses, even though sometimes it's difficult to implement if we can start with that simplistic understanding all of the sudden it doesn't feel so big for us as leaders, right?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Right, right! And, just describing what excellence looks like. I think most leaders of companies sort of, especially if they're for-profit companies, they make these assumptions that everybody knows that success is to make more money. But unless you are incentivized by that through a bonus program, you don't really care about that. Honestly, you don't care from a deep emotional level of engagement, you're not motivated by that. So outside of making money, what is the purpose of the company? How are we making a difference in the world?

That meaningful contribution can be a game-changer for companies for sure. And, you know, the best things are the most simple. Let me give you an example, sometimes if you've had to have a hard conversation. I see a lot of leaders have that conversation and say here's the behaviors I would like you to change. These behaviors are ineffective, here's what I'd like you to change. And they get frustrated because a month or two down the road those employees if they're good, and they try hard they're doing just enough. Not necessarily achieving excellence, but they're doing just enough where you can't have another conversation, you can't terminate them, but you're not really that happy.

And, so what I tell managers to do is when you have that conversation, describe in as much detail as possible what excellence looks. What thriving looks like. That's what I want you to achieve. Not “here's enough just to get by.” That alone will buy back the time for managers because describing that on the front end really gives them something to strive for. And, either they'll make it or they won't and then it makes your next steps a little more clear.

Jeff Hunt:

That's awesome, yeah and I love that concept about clarity around vision and making it compelling for employees. I had a, about probably five years ago actually yeah because it would have been 2015 and this is the year 2020, I was working with a client who thought they had a compelling vision when we went in there to begin with. And their vision, the CEO's vision, was “20 by 2020” keeping a mind this was 5 years ago. And her whole concept was 20 million by the year 2020. I said to her “is that really something that the employees can get their head around” and ultimately she came to the conclusion that it was not because it was simply a financial metric that they didn't have any interest in. So I really appreciate your using that as an example.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Yes, but what you just described is a perfect example. And so really, people think in images. So when you say 20 million, the image that you probably come up with is a pile of money. Unless you're getting a big chunk of that pile, it doesn’t really matter. But having something you know, that would lead to the 20 million is a scoreboard of doing things right.

Jeff Hunt:

Yes, it’s a byproduct isn’t it?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Totally

Topic 5. Using Virtual Reality to Combat Racism (23:53)

Jeff Hunt:

We only have a few minutes left, and I want to get to a really important question before we jump into “Vibe”, and it's really about racism and diversity which we've struggled with significantly again this year as a country. I'm wanting your perspective on the role that we can play as leaders, as business owners, as managers, what would you recommend, how would you advise your clients on what their role is in combating racism and promoting diversity and the workplaces they lead?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Well that's a super big question. Some of the things that I have seen that have been very effective with my clients. One big company, a hundred million dollar a year company, said we're not going to just put out a statement that we are you know against racism, we're actually going to look at the subtle things that happen within a company that make it a systemically racist company.

And so, what they did was for example, one of the things they did was they looked at how much everybody got paid. And they identified a couple people of color that were being paid substantially less than their counterparts. And they fixed it. They it fixed it, and they said you matter, and we're sorry, and let us do this with some back pay. Let us make this right. That kind of taking action and not just giving some lip service was a big game changer. Another company I saw a sat down and had a discussion with the people of different backgrounds, and said tell us your experiences, and how can we make this better. The ability to sit down and have a quality conversation is always a game changer.

No matter what the issue is, but just really listening with this deep curiosity and this desire to understand, not just waiting for their turn to respond but this genuine desire to understand is a game changer.

So there's really innovative things coming out on the forefront we're working with a company that has created a virtual reality product, and you put the goggles on and you suddenly become a man of Color. And even your controllers, your hands become this gentleman's black hands. And you're in this board meeting as a man of color having this conversation and you get to experience those nuances.

Being dismissed, or having the customer ask your white counterpart for credibility on something you've just said. That is creating immediate changes to behavior because you really get to experience what that feels like. We have another one that is that you become a woman in the board room and you get to experience that. So, it's those subtle nuances, not the overt stuff but the subtle things. So we're looking into innovative experiences to help people really learn some of these things instead of just throwing more information at them.

Topic 6. Achieving Organizational Vibe to Promote Clarity, Competency, and Chemistry. (27:13)

Jeff Hunt:

I really love that because you're helping your clients figure out a way to experientially immerse themselves into a place that they've never experienced. So without a common understanding of what these things feel like, how can we grow and learn and develop? That sounds very interesting, I'm sure you'll have some listeners probably reach out to learn more about that. I appreciate you sharing that. We’re gonna talk about “Vibe” now just for a few minutes. Give us kind of an overview - for a lot of people “Vibe” is a vague concept. Obviously, your Jazz BC, and so Jazz Business Consultants. You've got this whole concept of “Vibe”. What is it, how do you build it, measure it, what kind of difference does it make when you can do it well? Give us the thumbnail on this Jody.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Okay, “Vibe” is, “Vibe” is the good news. It's the thing that will fix everything else, and it's pretty simplistic to fix. How we got the concept, we were talking to a friend of ours who happens to be the director of the Count Basie orchestra a long time, big band orchestra, very famous. And they had just completed a recording that went well and they were all talking about “Vibe” as if it was so thick you can peel it off at the walls. We asked him how do you define “Vibe” for somebody who doesn't know what that means, because we all kind of know what “Vibe” is. “Vibe” happens when you bring together three elements. “Vibe” happens when you bring talented musicians together, you're clear about the piece you want to play, or the feeling you want to invoke in the audience, and then collectively the members of the band are so connected that they have great energy and synergy.

They know how to collaborate, communicate, and even navigate conflict. He said those three things clarity, competency, and chemistry together are “Vibe” and “Vibe” is what makes great music and great music is why people come to our shows. They don't come because we play the notes perfectly, they come because of how the music makes them feel.

And it's the same reason your customers do business with you, it’s the same reason your employees are committed to you, it's because of how the experience makes them feel. So that's actually where the name was born, we kind of said oh we were looking for a name for our company. We were kind of like the “jazz of the business world” and the metaphor and the name just stuck. And, so those are the three things that we measure in companies. What's your clarity like, what's your competency like, and what's your chemistry like?

Jeff Hunt:

And, so at the end of the day, they'll be a lot of listeners that want to know how they can increase this good “Vibe”, you know, you've just mentioned these three key elements. What are some things that they can do to increase that positive “Vibe”, and conversely eliminate some of the negative “Vibe”.

There's nothing worse than… you know, (my younger son is a jazz musician so of course I appreciate this whole sentiment) you know, when you're when you hear a missed note or something doesn't work, it's actually so disconcerting - it really kind of throws you. I would imagine in an organization it's similar when “Vibe” is not there. It actually can have a significantly opposite effect.

How do you increase good “Vibe” and eliminate bad “Vibe”?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Well you have to be intentional about those three elements. How is your clarity and give people that question. Go ahead and ask people “what do you think is most important thing,” that's a great starting point. Competency is really how well do you “play your own instrument” or do your own job, and then collectively how do we sound? We’ve got a great band, but the tuba player is off, we’ve got a sour note and that bad note kills the whole experience. If we’ve got a great product but I call customer service and it's a terrible experience, it's a sour note with a whole company.

And then chemistry - you know if you have great chemistry your team will figure out how to build clarity and competency, but if you have poor chemistry within your company, it doesn't matter how good the clarity and competency are. If people don't like each other and don't like working together, it will kill your clarity and competency. So I would say there's a couple of things people can do. They can go on our website and start with personal “Vibe” - we have a free assessment. Go and take the quiz and see what you're starting with, because every time you walk into a room you bring a “Vibe” with you which is good or bad.

So, we have to start with ourselves, and actually science shows that the science behind “Vibe” is your heartbeat radiates “Vibe” five feet from your body, and in some cases more. So, when your heartbeat is producing at a good level you're getting oxygen to the brain you're getting nutrients, things like that. When your heartbeat is erratic, you're not getting the right oxygen and nutrients to the rest of the body. But the interesting thing is when your heart beat is erratic because you're stressed, or you walk in angry or frustrated, the strongest heartbeat in the room and it will begin to set other people's heartbeats. You walk in with a bad “Vibe”, you actually can start to infect other people - the strongest heartbeat in the room will start to reset other people's heartbeats.

So, we’ve got to start with ourselves. You can go on, it’s a fun quiz, you’ll learn the kind of “Vibe” that you bring when you're at your best, and how you can bring kind of a negative “Vibe” and when you're not at your best.

Jeff Hunt:

Fantastic, so that's really contagious. It sounds like you want to be positively contagious not negatively contagious. It sounds like taking inventory is really key as one of the ways to do that is for them to take this free assessment on your website. Before I get too far field, where can they find you?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

network with us at jazz, like the music, BC for business consulting, jazzbc.com and just scroll down on the front page, take the assessment or you can take a look at different resources that we can offer as well.

Topic 7: Lightning Round Questions (34:19)

Jeff Hunt:

Fantastic. We're going to finish with some lightning round questions. I didn't tell you what these were advance, so we're just going to throw them out here for fun. All right, who is one person that you would love to interview, dead or alive?

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Elenore Roosevelt, by far. She overcame huge obstacles and made a difference in the lives of people.

Jeff Hunt:

Top book recommendation.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

For me it’s the bible, I’m a Christian. Second to that, I would say, oh man, there's so many good ones. The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. That's probably one of my most favorite.

Jeff Hunt:

One thing you are most grateful for.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Health. Absolutely. Hands-down. I overcame a breast cancer diagnosis and two years of treatment and I'm officially (as of Friday) 14 years out from diagnosis, so very, very grateful.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay, one thing on your bucket list.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Oh, to take my whole family to the Holy Land. We went to a pilgrimage, I went with some women, and we interviewed 25 organizations trying to solve the crisis over there. We heard from all sides of the narrative. It was fascinating, and so I have a great desire to bring as many people as I can back, just to have an understanding of what's really going on over there. And I'll tell you the thing that will solve it or good quality conversations.

Jeff Hunt:

That solves just about everything doesn't it? The piece of advice you've ever received.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

This is funny because the first thing that comes to your mind is probably the answer. Probably my mother who would tell me quite often “this is not an emotional issue.” And I think about in business when they see either I have a reaction or other people do that this is not an emotional issue.

Jeff Hunt:

Well Jody, this has been such a pleasure to see you and spend some time with you today. I really appreciate you devoting this time helping our listening audience learn how to come better; better leaders, better managers, better people, so thank you.

Jody Bagno-Dill:

Absolutely, thank you for the work that you do. I watched you commit to this company and I’ve gotta say Jeff, the tool that you've created so people can have better conversations is so valuable - it makes it so much easier. So, I just honor everybody who pours blood sweat and tears into products like the GoalSpan product to make conversations easier. It makes a difference in the lives of people that are using them and I'm not just saying that because I get to be on your show. I know what you've been through, and I know how much our co-clients that we both get to work with have said what a difference it makes. So I just want to honor you for all that you've put into that as well. So, thanks for having me!

Jeff Hunt:

I definitely appreciate that. Thanks everybody for listening in and stay tuned. We're gonna have more exceptional leaders like Jody - take a look at her website if you have any questions. I think her contact information is also on there as well and have a great day everybody.

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Outro: (37:35)

Closing music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to the show this week. We release a new episode of Human Capital on the first and third Tuesday of each month, I would really like to know what you thought of this episode, send your comments to humancapital@goalspan.com. Human Capital is produced by GoalSpan, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please share this podcast with your colleagues, team, or friends, thanks for being human kind.