5. Chief Marketing Officer, DocuSign

Intro: Duration: (2:10)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Welcome everybody! This is Human Capital, a GoalSpan podcast and I'm Jeff Hunt. Human Capital is the place where I interview top business thought leaders to uncover the deeply human aspect of work. My guest today is Rob Giglio who is the chief marketing officer at DocuSign and happens to be a friend of mine.

I love that his LinkedIn profile says he “leads a team that encourages the world to be more agreeable” We are in radical need of more agreeableness in this world, not only when executing agreements but also in our collective humanity. Rob came to DocuSign after 11 years at Adobe where he was senior vice president of worldwide sales for digital media and was had P&L responsibility for over seven billion, and yes billion with a B.

He is currently leading significant sales growth at DocuSign and I think you'll discover from my conversation with Rob that he is one of these infectiously positive people who like so many of my guests, just make you better when you spend time with them, so welcome Rob.

Rob Giglio:

Wow, that is a really high bar that you just set Jeff but I will endeavor do my best. I love the fact that you hit on the fact that we are interested, I personally am interested in helping the world to be more agreeable. It's a company mission but it's just such a higher order goal. I think for all of us to find common ground.

Jeff Hunt:

I'm really I'm actually looking forward to unpacking that. In a couple different ways in our conversation and it's so relevant this year with all of the disruption and disunity that is occurring in our country and actually around the world so, let's talk about that.

Topic 1. Guest’s background/Business is sport for adults. (2:11)

Jeff Hunt:

I actually love to start all our guests with a common question and it's tell me about your journey into business and more specifically, you know, rewind the movie all the way back, and tell me who or what in your younger life inspired you to go into business and specifically into leadership.

Rob Giglio:

Yeah well. I think it's never only one thing like certainly there are a lot of little touch points along the way. But the most I think continuous, and most pressing factor was my dad, and my dad worked in big organizations early in his career, and then decided he was more of an entrepreneur, and helped out small companies, help small companies to grow, both with operations leadership as well as general management.

And dinner table conversation was often like, The this stuff of hey I have this leadership team and we have this dysfunction, or hey we have a sourcing problem, how would you think about solving it? And so a lot of our just day to day conversations were very casual ones about business challenges, and how he would think about it, and he was always great about asking me, what would I do? like how would I handle it? And you know, maybe I was like 10 and I didn't know the answers to those things but that just got me interested in the stuff of business and a particular general management that was without a doubt.

Somebody said early in my career, but I think probably I knew this all along that business is sport for adults. and I love that phrase because you know, you have to work as a team, you have a common objective, you can log some wins and losses, just because you lose a couple of games along the way doesn't mean you're gonna lose the season, just because you didn't do well in the season doesn't mean you're not gonna do well in your career, I mean metaphorically I always thought that was pretty accurate and I've shared that with a lot of younger people starting their careers in business.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, that's really cool and actually in sports disruption makes you better, right? So, I mean you make mistakes and then you climb back and you do better and you practice harder and you do it so.

Rob Giglio:

Yeah and I think that probably embodies my approach to business. I was telling someone, we're doing a mentoring session at work this last week, and they were sort of asking like, you know, what did I think led me to the success that I've had and I said well is definitely not my intellect, it's definitely simply that I was willing to work really hard, you know. All along the way, but I kind of classify myself as a grinder.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, well let's clarify that a little because you do have an MBA from USC and it's also unique that you have that in finance because you're a marketing guy, right?

Rob Giglio:

Yeah, I didn't know the language of business so you know early in my career. I started my career at Procter & Gamble and I got surrounded through a number of really great roles there. I had amazing mentors along the way when I was there and early on some of my mentors would just comment on, that they felt like my communication skills were very strong, they felt like my instincts around leadership and providing direction we're good that was good with customers but I didn't know the first thing of a balance sheet versus a statement of cash flows versus an income statement.

I didn't understand like what they called the language of business which was really the backbone of how does business work. And so when I went to USC, you don't really have any one concentration it's a very general management education, but I really took more finance classes when I could, more accounting classes when I could, and for a little minute I actually thought I might want to go into accounting. I loved cost accounting. That's a weird thing for a marketer, but I just like the way it balanced itself out. I think it played to my slight OCD. Some people might say it's not slight, but whatever I got, you know.

Jeff Hunt:

Well, I think that finance background absolutely gives you a roundedness that a lot of leaders don't have so I think that's huge. And I really appreciate your mentioning your dad, because so often family is the greatest influence in our inspiration and desire to do what we do, whether it's business or music or anything. So it sounds like you guys had some really good dinner table conversations.

Rob Giglio:

No question.

Topic 2. DocuSign (6:52)

Jeff Hunt:

So I want to talk a little bit more about DocuSign and before I do, we on the Human Capital podcast, we don't do commercials, but I have to put in a plug for DocuSign. So, I'm gonna do that because at GoalSpan, we're a software company, which is of course contract intensive. We use DocuSign to execute all our agreements. I absolutely love it.

It's basically one of those things that after you implement it you can't imagine not doing it, because we used to literally like, you know print out the document, and then we would sign it, and then scan it, and then you have to send it to somebody, and then they print it, they sign it, they scan it, and the whole thing is a total pain in the rear so, that's my plug. And but one other thing I'll say is what's interesting is DocuSign is like probably becoming a noun kind of like, Kleenex you know you used to say, hand me a tissue, but now you just sort of say hand me a Kleenex. So maybe with DocuSign, it'll be like, I'm gonna send you a DocuSign is that actually?

Rob Giglio:

I think that's sometimes happens. We were excited this last weekend our leadership team, actually the whole company. We were in a comic like we actually the DocuSign brand name made it into a comic and it was a baseball coach telling the players at the end of the game. All right, good game everyone, why don't you go ahead and put on your masks and go DocuSign autographs for the fans. And for us, you know, that just like this comic writer could have put in the Sunday comics anything they wanted and they picked us, to do that and that was incredibly flattering.

I wouldn't mind if that's just how the whole world thinks about digitally signing, and digitally agreeing, and managing contracts. That would be amazing. I think a lot of it comes from the millions and millions of people that sign documents, like it's one thing to be a company like yours sending the document, but it's another when you look at the volume of signers, they're now aware of our brand in a way that's really positive because you know a good portion of them become senders. That's how we see the world senders and signers, and a lot of the signers ultimately become senders so it's important to us to have great customer experience through us.

Jeff Hunt:

It's sort of a good segue. you guys are experiencing pretty major growth this year, from a revenue standpoint, and I guess I'm curious and I know a lot of our listeners are probably curious about. Is this growth in part due to changes in terms of how people are doing business and you know, obviously you're a very innovative company you have a lot of very well-designed products that solve significant problems for your customers, but we're also in a year of a massive pandemic where work from home is the new norm, remote working. So, how is all of that changed for DocuSign and has that led to revenue growth for you guys.

Rob Giglio:

Well, I think. It's fairly well publicly documented so I'm comfortable sharing that. There's no question that the move to remote work, and just being remote in general, engaging with each other remotely like using zoom, like we are today to do this podcast. That moved to remote triggered a bit of a watershed moment because there were very many organizations like you know, tens of thousands or more organizations, that are waiting to make a digital transformation, so you know like you, they're sensitive to this like really inefficient paper process, but for whatever reason, they just haven't hit the tipping point.

Like for you hit the tipping point because you saw it as more efficient, you understood it, you're technically savvy, so for you as easy to implement DocuSign. A lot of businesses and a lot of organizations maybe were planning on it, was on the roadmap they just didn't have the moment push. And then with all the shelter in place and remote work immediately we saw a massive influx of need from our customers to do things that they couldn't otherwise do.

The banks, thinking about the PPP loans, you know, we were there to help your banks administer the contractual process of these loans, and those are just small examples. I didn't go into like all the ins and outs of it, but yeah, you could imagine that there's lots of businesses, lots of enterprises, lots of public sector healthcare, lots and lots of industries that it just, you know, we were happy to be able to help during that time.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, that's great and it almost seems as though, COVID was this massive catalyst for change, so organizations that you know, thinking about the way they were handling agreements, immediately it became a catalyst to do it in a better way which is kind of a cool thing.

Rob Giglio:

It is really cool, our CEO was quoted just recently on a financial investment TV show and one of the things he made the comment. I think his words were “Businesses and people just won't go back on something like a digital experience, a digital signature, a digital contract lifecycle management system because they see the benefits of how much better it is.” And so, as a marketer my challenge is and our company's challenges is to show people just how much better it could be. That it's more efficient, it's more secure, more reliable, your customers like it better. I mean who doesn't love just signing something quickly like you're talking about having to print out a PDF and you sign it and send it back to you like nobody likes that.

Topic 3. Core Values (12:50)

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, it was ridiculous. The opportunity cost of not changing is very high let's just put it that way for sure. So, internally what are your core values, and sort of how do you see them lived out in the workplace at DocuSign?

Rob Giglio:

So, we have three values that we share, they're part of our performance review, their part of our culture, they're in the fabric of the company. When we interview we even interview for these things and the three are trusted love and responsible. It was interesting because I'll give you a great example of where they came out like loud and clear.

Literally the first or second week of March, when the pandemic was like spiking, there was a lot of uncertainty, our volume just like grew so quickly and there was a lot of confusion in the company about how do we react to this? Like how do we respond? Are we aggressive in the way that we market against this big swing of volume? Are we thoughtful? Are we passive? We really were challenged with from a sales and a marketing standpoint. What's our approach? And it was it was great because we had a task force and the task force pulled out the values, and said well no matter what we're going to use these three values as a guiding framework for how we're going to help prospects and customers.

So, like trusted is an example, we had to make sure that we were doing things that were trustworthy to our customers, that they understood what they were signing up for, that you know, they didn't just sort of try to meet a need really quickly without to actually understanding how it was going to work, and that they could trust us to do the right thing on their behalf. And so, you know, that's probably the most salient example. I was really new with the company. I've been with the company for like two weeks and in that moment I had this like okay, I joined the right company, the fact that this is how we're thinking about responding, just really was great.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that example because really what you're saying is that. Core values when they're truly embodied into the organization serve as defining moment for decisions, and so when we're in a pinnacle place rather than making an emotionally based decision, if we go back to our core values and what we hold dear, and they make up our fabric then we're going to make better decisions than if we're just sort of doing it willingly.

Rob Giglio:

Absolutely, and you don't have to have a list of 500 values to give you enough of an anchor, that it can guide your behavior, and guide your interaction with customers, and employees, and shareholders. I think at Adobe we had far more we had I think three times that number. It didn't feel like too many but having just three: trusted, loved, and responsible, is enough of a framework that helps guide our actions. So it's great, and it's pretty profound how often parts of the organization refer to this, like in some places it's only the human resources organization or the people team , but that's not the case like marketing, sales, customer success, finance, would pull out the DocuSign values pretty regularly.

Topic 4. How the pandemic has changed business. (16:20)

Jeff Hunt:

That's really cool. I love it, okay so let's switch gears a little bit and I want to talk about, a little bit more about the pandemic. I know you used to be a global jet setter, you were on the plane a lot.

Rob Giglio:

That is a hard badge to wear.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah for sure. I guess I'm wondering your thoughts about how you think the pandemic will permanently change business travel, and do you see it as a positive or negative?

Rob Giglio:

Well, I think it's mixed. I think yeah, you're right. I mean, I traveled to an excess like a lot. But what I didn't love about it, which I'm glad is not the case now, I was away from my family, it's really hard on your body, it costs a lot of money, it's really taxing. The goods parts of it though, I always felt like outweighed the personal sacrifices that I may have been making, because I felt like I could be closer to customers, I could be closer to our teams in those regions. And I felt like it was a way to make sure I had a very outside end perspective on our business.

And I don't think there's any way, you can't get that on zoom. Like I'm super convinced you can't get a real engaged discussion with a customer on zoom. You can have a discussion, but you can't, it's not the same, like having a cup of coffee or lunch with a customer, you get deeper into the discussion about their business and how they think, and what motivates them, and why do they pick you, or why didn't they pick you. And I think those things are really important. I am meandering a little bit your question but I think travel is important for business. I think we probably all did it too much.

Because it just kind of, the volume of travel just kind of built on itself like, oh I went on 15 trips last year I should go in 16 trips this year and it just kind of escalated. There was oftentimes the sense that if you didn't travel then your budget was going to go away, and so you'd find people planning themselves into travel that was unneeded, and sure that was all really inefficient, and so I don't think we go back to that. I'm pretty sure we don't. I think we're gonna all be much more thoughtful about using video and we can and being in person when it makes sense.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah so it sounds like the in person trips and meetings maybe take on a new significance in the future when we're able to do that again, we're more intentional and strategic about how we use those and does that kind of makes sense?

Rob Giglio:

Yeah totally! I think it's actually interesting because when I think about the time that I might have spent in say Tokyo. Like I probably could spend half the time in Tokyo in the future, and get every bit the value so a lot of things that we would have done in person we could do on video, and the things that we couldn't do on video we will do in person. So, the coffee the lunch the dinner the meeting where we spend a lot of time talking about the business, and how we as a vendor could be better that just you have to have that.

Topic 5. Tough performance conversations. (19:40)

Jeff Hunt:

Awesome, so, all right this is an interesting question but there's a lot of learning that I think is gonna come out of your answer at least that's my guess for listeners. So, I'd like to know without you naming any names or companies. I want you to describe the worst performance conversation you've ever had in your career either as an employee or a manager, so it doesn't matter to me, why was it so bad what would have made it better?

Rob Giglio:

Oh man, this is such an easy one, because I remember it like it was yesterday. So yeah don't name any names so I won't. It was my it was my very first job, in my very first like maybe two months, and I was reporting to someone who was a very challenging manager, this person was really hard to work for. You can just leave it like that. And I was invited to get a performance review from a skip level, so that was a pretty normal thing that's just a particular company, to do skipped level performance reviews, it wasn't just a check in it was actually like okay, let me tell you how you're doing we'll talk about your performance.

And before that skip level performance review happened, this is before email by the way, this shows you how long ago this was. I got a letter, and the letter said looking forward to the review. I would like you to answer these questions, and there was a certain set of questions about my own performance. And then a lot of questions about my manager's performance, and I didn't think anything of it at the time, like I really didn't I just was I was very open. I was very direct. I didn't wonder why that question was happening.

I typed up my own performance review, like literally on a typewriter made a copy of it at the Kinkos, and went in for my review and, the review basically turned into a I want you to review your boss, and I want you to tell me all the things that are awful about your boss, and it got really documented, and after that review, I didn't have any better sense of what I was either good or not good at. I didn't really share much about what I, you know my own sort of self-assessment because all the conversation was angled at this manager because the skip level manager was really actually trying to counsel this person out of company.

It was super weird, and it had like lasting little sort of follow-ups where like a month later, somebody from human resources, asked me about this document that had a type of that gave my manager performance review and she was just it was a great lesson. I was I don't know 21 years old right like right out of undergrad, and at that point I was realizing like oh, okay, this is real, here we go.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah so much learning comes from those experiences, right? But I'm sure yeah much better leader as a result of having experienced that.

Rob Giglio:

Well, I certainly am more savvy about sharing opinions like that. I'm much more thoughtful about how will this helper hurt someone else and is that really what I want to do?

Topic 6. How to tell who is the top performer? (23:18)

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah exactly and speaking of like performance management, and performance reviews what does that look like at DocuSign?

Rob Giglio:

Yeah, it's um, it's fairly similar to the last couple of companies I've been at, so I think it's probably maybe an example of best practices. I would guess if there was like a if there was a best practice it is. We basically have two time periods we do a mid-year and we do an end of year both of them are well-documented the intent of the mid-year is a calibration discussion, on here's how you're doing so far, here's things you should do more of, things you do less of.

It has a little bit of focus on outcomes so it's a little bit about the results year to date, but it's a lot about how you've got to the results as opposed to just the results. So we don't spend a lot of time on like oh you're 12% above quota, we spend a lot of time on, I like the way that you're you know, communication skills have improved, you're leading your team more effectively that kind of thing.

So the two major factors, the year-end is the kind of formal end of year performance review far more documented, it's bigger takes more time of the conversation, is longer. And then there's talent calibration that takes place basically between the mid-year and the year-end and talent calibration is basically by level, a review of, we now use a six box, but you know a lot of people use a two-box. You know performance and potential is usually the two axes yeah and so we use a six which is kind of just a more granular version of the same thing.

And we basically place people, we have a group discussion on them, why are they in those boxes? So, that other leaders around the organization will get a sense of the opportunity. I think it's really good it feels lightweight it's very technically enabled like we have this system. I don't remember the name of the system, maybe that's not important we branded it DocuSign, but having that digital system, and sending the email prompts and kind of guiding us through it, back to your point about digital transformation, is awesome because I used to hate like download the form open it in acrobat type in my comments in the fields save it back it was a nightmare.

Jeff Hunt:

Exactly that's really cool, well and of course we live and breathe at it GoalSpan. I think what I really loved about what you shared is how inclusive it is about, how things are accomplished in addition to what. Because if you do have a rock star performer, whether let's say there's a salesperson and they knock the ball out of the park every quarter, but nobody can get along with him, like are they really a five on their? Or even if you're not doing numerical ratings are they really like the top performer I don't think so.

Rob Giglio:

I don't think so either.

Jeff Hunt:

Like how do you distill a person's overall performance into one average number?

Rob Giglio:

You just can't.

Jeff Hunt:

It's very, very tricky.

Rob Giglio:

That's actually one of the reasons why I like that talent calibration process, with these two-box, six-box, and nine-box doesn't really matter because you get a sense of like this person's performance across multiple attributes.

Topic 7. How can HR improve their value to the organization? (26:43)

Jeff Hunt:

Yes, definitely okay, all right a couple more questions and we'll go to kind of some lightning round questions. I just am curious at your opinion as somebody who's not you know, we have a lot of leaders and non-leaders listening to this podcast also we have a pretty good HR contingent and so as somebody who's not an HR person but has had experience at the executive level over a career, tell me what you feel are the most important things that HR can do to improve the value they bring organizations.

Rob Giglio:

That's it, that's an awesome question. I would say that anybody who's listening who's an HR person. I think, just a reminder that you're literally the pivot person in the people game. Like, you're the human person. And if I'm the salesperson I'm the customer, person if I'm the marketing person, I'm the prospect person, if I'm the customer success person, I'm the post-purchase person, the one group in the entire organization, that's the people person is human resources.

So, I think it's important to have the systems and processes that keep the machine moving, the people machine moving like that's just kind of the framework of good people management, people leadership, but if it stops right there then it's a total mess like the thing that I'm most appreciate from really good human resources partners or HRBPs, is when they're actually engaged in the team that they're working with, like they really understand the culture of the team, they really understand the levels of engagement from the various participants on the team.

And they see it as a part of their responsibility to get the most out of the team, like it's not just let's say, you know, I'm lead marketing it's not just the head of marketing's responsibility to get the most out of the marketing organization granted. I take that responsibility, I definitely feel like that is, but when I have a human resources partner who also sees that as their charter it's way more powerful, like I mean incredible and then you work together on what are we doing to engage the team? and what kind of engagement do we need? Do we need training do we need career development? Do we need small coaching? Like what is it that we need to make the team perform at the highest levels.

There's no like processing system that can get that out of an organization, you have to have those things but it's really the HR person who helps drive that, and I've had some pretty amazing HR business partners over the years, where that's how they think, they really think of it as like, hey this is our team together and I'm gonna help get the most out of this team with you, that's awesome.

Jeff Hunt:

It's almost like you're describing having a really good wingman, if you have that, you know, they have your back they're gonna support you, and you're gonna execute better.

Rob Giglio:

Yeah that's exactly right it's the same thing as, I've always had a finance partner that maybe you think of it as like the finance person was always my right-hand person, and a good HR person is my left-hand person, like oh it's the money, the planning, the forecasting, the analysis, the choices, the resource allocation, over on one side, and then it's the people side the, how do you get the most out of this team that you've got? How do you help them get better? What processes do you need to put in place to improve the way you work? Individually what things do you do to make every single participant of the team that much stronger? Like those are the two kind of, for me, those are the two main I guess right-hand people left-hand people.

Jeff Hunt:

Sure the other thing I like about what you're saying is that oftentimes an organization to HR is looked at sort of this other department that's just sort of out there in the ether, and their managing all these things. And they’re helping the organization run but, you're talking about having the more indoctrinated inculcated approach, where they're literally into the fabric of the organization. So yeah, I really appreciate that.

Topic 8. Lighting Round Questions (31:20)

Jeff Hunt:

Okay, let's shift and I'm gonna throw some lightning round questions at you. Rob's not heard these questions in advance and so you can just share whatever comes to mind. There's no right or wrong answer and, some of them are pretty easy, but we are very close, you know. Thanksgiving is right around the corner, so I'm gonna start with this one. What are you most grateful for?

Rob Giglio:

Oh, boy. I'm most grateful for my family. We don't have a huge family. My immediate family is just the four of us and then we don't have a lot of cousins, or aunts, or uncles that that are involved but we're a very close small family and I'm really grateful for them, and how we're in each other's lives, that's a pretty special thing.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. COVID has made us all grateful for things with a new perspective hasn't it this year? So, okay, number two, you've literally been all over the world Rob, what is your absolute favorite place, and why? And does it have anything to do with surfing?

Rob Giglio:

I was gonna say yes and yes. Well to pick a single favorite is really hard Jeff so I'm gonna say two things. One of them is I'm gonna say Sydney Australia is my favorite place to visit. Yes, it has a lot to do with surfing, and yes it has a lot to do with the team that I worked with down there. I absolutely loved them. Yeah, actually I loved all the teams that, I was really lucky, I had great people working on my team. I love the attitude, the weather, reminds me of San Diego, which is where I went to undergrad, so it gives me a little familiar thing.

And then I would say I was either gonna say Kamakura or Tokyo. I'm gonna go with Kamakura mainly because someone who worked for me at Adobe lives in Kamakura. So, when I would go to, Tokyo I would often time stay the weekend, go to his house, be with his family, meet his friends, and he was just such a warm generous person. And there was good surfing nearby. So I think if you put the surfing and the people, and the culture. That's what I loved about traveling really, is getting exposed to the people and the cultures, made some really wonderful friends doing that.

Jeff Hunt:

Great. What habit have you picked up since COVID either good or bad?

Rob Giglio:

I haven't had shoes on, in like seven months, our flip flops and shorts and I and I go like, you know, the dress shirt dress top, that's probably one. Yeah, let's leave it like that.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, comfort has become incredibly important. What's your favorite food?

Rob Giglio:

Oh, that's super hard. Probably just Mexican I like Mexican food best I will go with Mexican food.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay and two more. What's your how about a top book recommendation?

Rob Giglio:

Oh my gosh, I guess you know this I read a lot. I really like to read. And there's too many good ones to just pick one, but there is one that I go back to a lot. I probably read it like five times. I read it in college it's definitely like a high school college book that you can keep picking up, it's the Confederacy of Dunces, it's fantastic, it’s a satire on human behavior so, anyone in HR might enjoy it because it's just this really funny-sad character, it's a great book. And then, in general, I love anything that relates to perseverance, and adventure, so I read a lot of like a classic one that I read a while ago was Endeavor (Shackleton's Adventure) (35:33), Skeletons in the Sahara, a favorite of mine that was about some traders that were washed ashore and taking the slaves really interesting.

Recently I just read one, and I'm blanking on the name so maybe I won't even say it, but it was about the great migration during Jim Crow era, of blacks leaving the South and coming to the north, and it chronicles like three different families and they're experiences from the nineteen like thirties, all the way through the nineteen seventies, some went to New York, some went to Boston, some went to Chicago, and some came to California, super interesting it was a perspective that they don't teach in high school or college that I really personally didn't have and I found it fascinating.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, very good. I actually also I'm gonna just add one, the new Jim Crow if you haven't read it is quite an amazing book, speaking about how systemic racism has sort of become in our country, so that just made me think of that. Okay, last question for you is, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Rob Giglio:

I think I received a lot of pieces of advice. I was the kind of kid who needed a lot of advice growing up, probably still do, but I think my dad used to use a phrase, he still uses it all the time, and it's great advice and I took it to heart and the phrase is the most worthy deed helped someone else succeed, and I love that and I think that I've tried to make a career of that and it has served me really really well.

Jeff Hunt:

Yes, the most worthy deed helps somebody else succeed that's awesome. Well, that is a great note to finish on so Rob I just want to thank you so much for investing time out of your incredibly busy schedule to be with me today and to share a lot of great wisdom with our audience.

Rob Giglio:

I was happy to do it, thank you, Jeff.

---

Outro: (37:48)

Closing music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to the show this week. We release a new episode of Human Capital on the first and third Tuesday of each month, I would really like to know what you thought of this episode, send your comments to humancapital@goalspan.com. Human Capital is produced by GoalSpan, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please share this podcast with your colleagues, team, or friends, thanks for being human kind.