The HubSpot Culture Code (Replay)

Intro: Duration: (04:28)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Hey, this is Jeff. As we approach the mid-year point of 2023, I'm taking a pause on the heels of a wonderful vacation to replay a couple of my favorite episodes. But before I do that, I was thinking that the mid-year point is a great time to pause, pull out your journal, and answer a few key questions that can help you have a great second half of the year.

The first question is, what’s your biggest accomplishment so far this year? I like this question because it allows you to celebrate and can provide a sense of progress and fulfillment. How often do we pause to really think about what we’ve accomplished – all too often we’re quickly climbing the next hill. It's a question that can also boost your motivation and confidence.

The second question is, are you feeling fulfilled and motivated in your current work? And if you're not, what might be missing? This question helps you evaluate whether your current work aligns with your values and your interests and aspirations. And if you're not feeling it, it prompts you to identify where there may be gaps.

The last question is, are you making progress toward achieving your professional or career-based aspirations? So, if you really think long-term, what are your career goals? Have you written them down? And if you're not making progress, what adjustments can you make?

Now, I'd like to tee up this replay episode. This was one of my recent favorites and if you've listened to the podcast much, you know I talk a lot about culture. My guest on this episode is Katie Burke who is one of the best culture creators I've met. Katie is Chief People Officer at HubSpot.

If you know anything about HubSpot, they have one of the best corporate cultures of all time. In my conversation with Katie, I appreciated her realism about what it takes to create a HubSpot kind of culture. She also goes beyond corporate culture and explores what it takes to create a healthy internal culture in our own minds. What kind of culture do you have in your inner world when you show up at work every day?

I hope you enjoy this replay episode of the HubSpot Culture Code with Katie Burke.

Jeff Hunt:

I'm Jeff Hunt and this is Human Capital where we uncover the deeply human aspect of work. The responsibility of creating and maintaining culture in an organization falls on everyone in the C suite but it truly comes to life through people operations, and more specifically through the Chief People Officer. I would even say in today's organizations, the right CPO is the second most strategic role in the C-suite after the CEO.

I might embarrass her by saying this but as CPOs go, today, I am lucky to be talking with one of the best. Katie Burke is CPO at HubSpot, and she oversees recruitment, People Operations, learning and development culture, and employee experience. Today, Katie and I are going to talk not only about organizational culture, but also about the impacts of empathy and understanding at work, and how reactivity and defensiveness can become a culture cancer. Katie has led the charge HubSpot on initiatives that have increased women in leadership by 20% over a three-year period.

Katie and her team are also credited with HubSpot being awarded the number two Best Places to Work award in 2022 by Glassdoor, and this was the Employees' Choice Award. HubSpot has been recognized by Fortune as the best place to work for women, by Comparably as a top company for diversity, and a top workplace by the Boston Business Journal, and the Boston Globe. I think Katie has been doing a few things right. Katie, it's great to have you on the show today!

Katie Burke:

I appreciate it! Thank you so much for having me Jeff, honored to be with you.

Topic 1. Katie’s Career Journey (04:29)

Jeff Hunt:

Well, we're gonna talk everything culture today. But before we do, can you give us a thumbnail of your career journey?

Katie Burke:

Yes, let's actually go way back. So my first ever job was working at the Express selling jeans. As I got my start in retail, I was also a waitress, I was a lifeguard. So did a bunch of odd jobs growing up. But my first official real job was in consulting, got a little bored by that, went to a startup at the time that did political consulting, mostly in the communication space.

Awesome for my first experience ever in the startup world and I love the adrenaline that came along with it, but I knew when everyone else signed up for the presidential elections that my heart was not in politics. So, I decided to go to business school, I went to MIT and the goal was to switch from politics to sports. After I graduated from Sloan, I joined a venture back startup that is now called Exos, but was called athlete's performance was focused on taking elite athlete training and bringing it to the masses.

Because of the change in the economy that transpired of course, right when I graduated, there were some significant changes in what the market wanted from a wellness perspective. And so we pivoted to focus on corporate wellness and spent four years there had a really great experience got some interesting hands-on experience on what it means to take those lessons and then joined HubSpot 10 years ago.

First working in the marketing capacity and then switching over to People Operations the week after our IPO. So, I've been at HubSpot from 450 employees to now about 7000 employees, so it's been an interesting and amazing ride, and the way I try and think about it is I didn't design my career this way. People will say like, what was your grand plan? It was all a happy accident, but I think the common denominator is really adrenaline.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that. Well, it's never a straight line. Is it? Was there anyone Katie that really inspired you along the way or early in your career journey?

Katie Burke:

I mean, yeah, so I've had the same hero since I was a little girl who is Marian Wright Edelman. She runs the National Children's Defense Fund, and she was a pioneer in innovating on behalf of children. And what I've always admired about her is that she's pounding the table for other people. So, my favorite heroes, my favorite literary characters, Scout Finch, pretty much anyone I admire is someone who pounds the table for what's right.

And so that's been really important to me since I was quite a bit younger. And as far as big influences on my career I've been lucky enough to have had many. So, when I was at Clover Park, the political startup and mentioned I was lucky enough that each and every one of the partners taught me something a skill that I still use in some way, shape, or form today.

When I was at Athlete's Performance, a gentleman named Chris Hickey taught me a ton about people management that I didn't know. And during my career at HubSpot, I have had too many mentors to name but JD Sherman, our former president has been a personal and professional mentor to me that I feel lucky to have gotten to know.

Jeff Hunt:

That's awesome. It's incredible how those people have an impact on our lives, isn't it?

Katie Burke:

I mean, truly, they're the people that you know, you think about your phone or friend, and the phone or friend it's amazing actually how consistent sometimes it stays through the years and many of those people are people I would call for advice on professional and personal topics, which is super cool. I feel incredibly lucky, and we were talking before I got started as the oldest and a big family I also rely on my siblings for advice and for humility. If I ever thought about getting a big head after all those awards and my siblings will bring me right back to reality.

Topic 2. Efficient Strategies to Improve DEI (07:55)

Jeff Hunt:

I love that. I want to just talk about the tech industry for a minute. Tech has gotten sort of a bad name over the years, but actually, the tech industry has made a lot of progress. There are still some struggles just to become more inclusive of all genders, all national origins, all languages, all sexual orientations, and all racial identities. And so what I'm curious about Katie is what strategies do you feel have moved the needle most in improving inclusivity in these areas?

Katie Burke:

Yeah. So major plus one, I share both your optimism about where tech is headed and the encouragement and also the desire to continue moving the needle, because I don't think tech is as diverse as it should be, as you said. So, a few things that work in my opinion, one is the focus when it comes to diversity oftentimes, people lead with their heart versus thinking about what strategically actually works.

And so, at HubSpot, some of the things we did were really focused intentionally on growing the women in leadership that you mentioned, so hitting that number, really focusing on BIPOC folks, and making the difference on hiring and retention, the more specific you can be, the better. That is really hard to do when it comes to matters of diversity and inclusion because it really means we're not focused on a specific group or number.

Now, what I often say to people is anything we do about diversity really does make a difference for everyone. And it also makes our managers and leaders more thoughtful about this. But I think an intentional focus is really a difference maker. I think the second thing is it has to come from more than people operations. So our team is obviously a leader, we help drive those conversations, and we're catalysts.

But at the end of the day, decisions are made without People Operations professionals in the room and so it's really imperative that the impetus, the onus, and the accountability come from more than people operations. And third, I would say it has to be a strategic priority. So, one of the things I'm most proud of at HubSpot is it certainly lives on our HR priorities but it lives on our corporate priorities, both for the year, but also for what we measure, but also for three-year and five-year strategies. I think that's critically important that it's on the same level as other business imperatives in terms of importance.

Jeff Hunt:

And regarding number two, the importance of pushing this down throughout the entire organization, I would imagine that one of the things you're going to talk about is how to do that. And I'll just post it as a question, is it through training methodologies? Is it through the indoctrination of your core values? Obviously, some people may be scratching their heads and just saying, I get that, but how do you actually bring it to life?

Katie Burke:

So, I think a few things matter, one, I don't think training and isolation work. We have some training that is super valuable at HubSpot, and I think has moved the needle but I think just doing a bunch of training is not going to actually change the fundamental course of your diversity journey. I think a few things that really do work one, I really believe you can't manage what you don't measure. And so really measuring your data.

Two is the accountability of sharing that data externally, so one of the best things we ever did at HubSpot was sharing our data and our annual report. Doing it when it was really not great was a great forcing function because there was a level of okay, I know this is going to happen next year, I think that really matters. The third thing I would say is I think with diversity, in particular, there's this huge temptation to talk the talk without walking the walk.

And I think one thing our founders have done really well, is they'll say we're okay, actually with us missing out on press coverage or some award, because we want to make sure we get the steps right. So, integrity and authenticity and how you approach it are critically important as well.

Jeff Hunt:

It also seems like the communication strategy from the top is incredibly important. And now you have Yamani as your CEO, so you have a female CEO at the helm. So you have an opportunity to really extend that voice in a new way, but wouldn't you say that making the true business case for this to every single person like why it is so important, and maybe even sharing the statistics around how highly diverse teams actually outperform those that are homogenous, is that a truism?

Katie Burke:

So, I have a controversial opinion on this, which is people often try and get me to weigh in on whether the kind of the heart case or the mind case is the better way to make the case. I actually believe strongly that you need to do both. So, we have people at HubSpot who are very, very, very convinced by this is the right thing to do.

It's just we care about creating a company that outlasts us and it's simply the right thing to do. We also have people who are let's call it skeptics. They're data-driven, they kind of want to understand, Okay, help me understand a little bit more about this. That's okay by me too and so when I make the case for diversity, whether it's inside HubSpot, or outside HubSpot.

I actually am a fan and proponent of including both reasons because I think both are compelling, depending on what lifecycle what stage of the company you are, and I would argue, I certainly believe in my core that it's the right thing to do and the ethical thing to do. I also know that with the macroeconomic changes It's very easy for companies to pull back on this and say it's not a business priority. And so, I believe it's critically important to include both of those reasons.

Topic 3. The Power of Therapy in Leadership (12:58)

Jeff Hunt:

Okay, that's great. Let's shift and talk a little bit about what I teed up in the introduction, which is essentially this whole concept of empathy and compassion and respect for people versus defensiveness and this other posture of resistance. And you wrote this article, so, there's an article in Fast Company, it's called why every leader needs a therapist. And by the way, we'll put a link to the article in our show notes.

But I think, first of all, therapy can be transformational for people that can help them respond to situations with empathy and understanding better, instead of this sort of reactivity, reactiveness, and defensiveness. And I'm a fan of it, and it's really helped provide a perspective. I'm curious about your perspective on this, maybe you can sort of highlight key points from this article and share your own experience.

Katie Burke:

Yeah, so we were talking at HubSpot about mental health awareness month, and we were talking about what we were doing to support mental health awareness. And we do a fair amount of HubSpot in terms of benefits and normalizing talking about mental health, but I think when it comes to mental health, as you said, a lot of people say just by all means you go but I'm not going to talk about me going, it's very much you go first and so, I talked with my team about the fact that I hadn't really spoken specifically about, hey, this is why it's important to me and this is why I personally go.

And so, I think it's a huge opportunity, I feel lucky to have shared that information and context because it normalizes it for my team. The reason I think it's so valuable and important is you don't show up every day. So, you asked me about my career journey, I do not show up every day for work, although I wish I did with a completely blank slate, where those experiences don't inform how I show up every single day, or how I build relationships or how I react under stress.

And I think that there's a lot that's been written about managing teams, you can read so many books about how to communicate, how to run a great all hands, how to give a good performance review, and all those are really important but as you grow and scale, as a leader, the biggest thing you control is the energy you show up with yourself. And so, I think most people are not talking enough about how managing yourself is a critical part of managing the scale and growth, particularly during stressful times

And so one thing I want my team to look towards, is to not just say how are they going to improve or what are they going to do, but instead to think and learn and understand everything about how I'm trying to improve as a leader and that includes going to therapy talking about some things that are consistent challenges for me, I would say one of the biggest challenges on that front is I'm a checklist person, I like to learn a lesson and move on.

And the hardest lessons in therapy or in leadership are the ones you have to revisit over and over and over again it's one of my favorite questions, Oprah is obviously a legend of an interviewer and I love her question of what's the lesson that took you the longest to learn? That's the one that you kind of keep coming back to her was the hardest to learn. Those I think are the most interesting leadership challenges and oftentimes, those heavily intersect with who you are as a human.

And so I think just normalizing that you're working through those things, and also normalizing the routines with which you are prioritizing those things really matters. And the example I gave in the pieces, I have a woman on my team who's doing a stained-glass art course, I had never known her to be interested in glass prior to this period, but she was like, it's just going to give me mindful time to not think about work.

And so my expectation and talking about the fact that I go to therapy or that I prioritize this yoga meditation class that I go to regularly is not so that everyone on my team does the same thing. It's so that they feel empowered to do the rituals and create space for things that are restorative to them.

Jeff Hunt:

Well, also the therapist is often thought of as the person to go to when you're in crisis when the reality is, there are so many benefits to go when you're not in crisis, you have improved self-awareness, you have a better understanding of your own reactivity and your own periods of defensiveness and you can work through those issues, right?

Katie Burke:

I think of it as an oil change, like you don't wait into your car is on fire, at least I hope you don't go in and get it checked out. And so if you think about an oil change on a regular basis is just like, okay, regular check-ins and checkups on how you're doing and what might be triggering or problematic for you, or what might be stressing you out that you didn't even realize until you created that space. And so I think doing it regularly, as you said before, things are at a 9 or 10, I think is incredibly valuable and grounding.

Topic 4. Empathy, compassion, and respect at work (17:15)

Jeff Hunt:

For sure. So, let's talk about these things in the context of business culture for a minute. So you know, we mentioned empathy. I like to put things in terms of compassion as well because there's a difference between empathy and compassion. But what are the positive impacts of these types of behaviors at work?

Katie Burke:

So I think we started this conversation talking about diversity, inclusion, and belonging, it is absolutely impossible, I think to create a workspace where people feel like they belong without a degree of compassion and empathy for the people that you work with and a willingness to truly walk in their shoes and understand on what they're navigating or bringing to bear on the day to day experience. And I think that's number one, it's directly tied to diversity.

But number two is we are all navigating, we've been a part for the better part of two years so regardless of whether you're back in the office full time or working remotely, chances are you've had less face time with the people and things you love, and less travel less joy over the past few years that you might have and so I think it's more important than ever, that we're talking about this, because I think there are people for whom going back to life as normal is really restorative and fun and energizing.

And then I think there are some people who are really struggling for whom they're feeling overwhelmed, they're feeling not quite back to normal, they're feeling confused around what the next chapter of their lives might look like. And so I think it's a particularly important time to prioritize this. And then the third is, obviously, we'll see what happens with the broader macro-economic environment. But I do think in a tight talent market, people vote with their feet, and they can choose to work at a company that just cares about numbers, or they can choose to work at a place that prioritizes empathy and compassion.

And what we've seen time and time again, from our employees is one really good trend about the competitiveness for talent, are people care more about the mission and what matters than ever. And so they're looking for managers and leaders who prioritize that empathy and compassion and their communications and their actions. And so, I truly believe more people are going to seek out both managers and workplaces to prioritize these types of conversations.

Jeff Hunt:

And it makes so much sense because when people show up at work if they feel seen and heard, and if they feel like their manager and their peers care about them personally, and what's going on in their lives, then they feel connected, they feel emotionally connected to those relationships and to the company, right, and they're more likely to perform better.

Katie Burke:

Exactly one of the things I always encourage people to ask as part of their interview process, even when the talent market was as tight as it was a few months ago, is to help me understand how your company treats people when things are not perfect. And that could apply to a market correction but it could also apply to a colleague who had a medical emergency, they didn't realize how did HR support the team?

How did the manager create space for it? And I think sometimes people skip that question because it's so easy to focus on how people are treated when things are amazing. And I think it's critically important to ask that question because it says a lot about the degree to which someone can give a specific example of that,

Topic 5. Negativity and Reactivity in Work Culture (20:14)

Jeff Hunt:

For sure, Katie, shifting to the negative impacts of reactivity and defensiveness, let's talk about that for a minute, because part of it comes from a place of cultures and up with negativity and reactivity, in my opinion, oftentimes because leaders and peers are unwilling to have difficult conversations with people. But I'm curious about what your thoughts are about the negative impacts and how they truly can become cancer.

Katie Burke:

They definitely can I first want to normalize the fact that, I have reacted poorly, I've sent emails I regret, I've definitely shown up in meetings, I've definitely given feedback in a way that I would not be proud of where you'd roll back the tape. So, I think one thing I would just say is like, I had this great conversation with my coach at one point, and I showed up, and I was just I was like, massaging my temples.

And I was like, look, I just want to own something, which is I really messed up, and here's what I did, here's what happened, whatever. And so, she was like, okay, so what did you do? And I was like, I apologized. And she was like, directly, succinctly with no caveats? Yes, I just was wrong, and here's what I did about it. And she's like, cool, then let's move on from this. And let's just figure out how we prevent it moving forward.

And so I think one thing we have to distinguish is reacting at the moment or reacting imperfectly is a human behavior that everyone is going to participate in, there's a huge difference between doing that and creating space and normalizing it and moving forward versus a culture where that's acceptable, normal behavior that is excused or overlooked, those are two totally different things. And so I think sometimes when we talk about management and leadership, we want people to be superhuman and never make mistakes.

And instead, I think it's about the fact that you are 100% correct that a culture that makes excuses for that or allows managers to lead like that regularly is hugely problematic, and I do think sometimes people shut down when managers or leaders don't respond in the absolute perfect way they hoped for. And so, I would say on this one, I want us to meet somewhere in the middle, which is culture should be training people, managers, and leaders to be thoughtful and how they show up and how they react. One of the things we talk about at HubSpot, which is drawn from the energy project is this notion of like above the line and below the line.

Hey, when I'm below the line, here are some stressors, you might notice that I talk even faster than I currently do, and you might notice that I'm more frustrated, that's how we're frustrated or overwhelmed is how it comes across for me, that doesn't mean you have to be the recipient of vitriol if I'm feeling that way but those are some leading indicators that you make okay, maybe we should revisit this conversation later.

And I think creating space to talk about things like that and also things like working with my documents to help understand one of the best times for people, if you're looking to give me tough feedback, these are the time windows, and here's how I like to be approached. I think just giving people a little bit of user guidance because turns out human beings are more complex than we might think we should give people a little bit of context on how to navigate those conversations helps.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And another thing I just heard recently, which really made sense is, like, you may have feedback for me, Katie, but if you had come to me, and you actually asked me if you can present that feedback, or give that feedback, then I can say, yes, that's great, or Katie, I'm not in a great place for that, can we meet next Monday at 9am. And then all of a sudden, I put myself in a position and you in a better position, as the giver and receiver of feedback in a substantive way.

Katie Burke:

100%. And I think that is such an important reminder, and then I also think, as a leader creating the space for you to even just say that, right? So, if for example, in a one-on-one, I'm not pausing at the end to say, Jeff, is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to make sure we got to, that gives you the perfect entry to say would it be okay.

If I give you some feedback, which then leads to our great conversation at 9am if I don't stop to pause, which honestly can sometimes be a challenge for me, I have missed that opportunity to let you have that conversation. And so part of what we're also working on with our teams is creating that intentional pause space to give you a chance to ask that question.

Topic 6. How to Become a Great Place to Work? (24:13)

Jeff Hunt:

I love that. Okay, so I mentioned a couple of awards in the beginning and in our intro, but what are some of the HubSpot people strategies that really lead you to achieve the number two best place to work in 2022? I mean that's a big deal.

Katie Burke:

I so appreciate it. What I always tell our team about awards is that they are an output, not an input. They're a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator. So great, we one day of celebration, I tell my team how proud I am of them, and I truly am still of all those awards and every single person who reads about that award is going to try and replicate what we're doing and our success. So, we need to raise the bar.

And so, what that means is there's no magic bullet. So as an example, when Glassdoor first started, the number one question I would get when I would go to conferences to talk about it was essentially like how do I create a bot that responds to Glassdoor reviews and takes care of this? You're kind of missing the point, it's not about the fact that I spend time on the reviews, it's the fact that I take the reviews that are tough to read, or that are celebratory, and make sure that we're really toasting the people that got great reviews, or the teams that got great reviews and the behaviors that led to that.

And then when we get tough feedback, I'm sending you a note saying, Jeff, hey, I'm seeing a pattern, some of the feedback we're getting from your teams, can we work together to kick the tires to understand exactly what's going on here and understand it further? And so, in other words, it's not about the employer brand, it's about the day-to-day experience we're delivering and so truly the secret, if there is one to our awards, is responsiveness to feedback, we pour over internal feedback and our feedback mechanism, our people analytics team is world-class.

But what they would tell you is our mechanism for survey feedback is not revolutionary, it’s amazing and they do a great job being more transparent about it. What makes us unique is our follow-through on it and our openness to it. And so, we post the comments from every survey so people can read all the comments, including all the negative ones on that stuff, we're super transparent about it. And then we also post action plans for here's how we're actually going to move forward on this. And I think both of those things are critically important to build trust with our employees, even at our scale.

Jeff Hunt:

When it sounds like he really recognizes the strategic value of investing in all of that feedback and the time that it takes because of the dividends it pays right?

Katie Burke:

I think that's the other thing our founders did. I am incredibly proud of our team and the work they do, and I think our founders were ahead of their time on just even laying out the fact that we wanted a culture of autonomy and transparency, so codifying the culture code before we went public. It made us well ahead of our time, and it showed how invested the founders were. And so one thing I always struggle with is people leaders will often ask, like, how do we get a seat at the table?

Or how can we, for example, get our founders to prioritize this, I have to be honest, I'm approaching this from a huge position of privilege in that we've always had founders who care deeply about this stuff. And if anything, when we interview leaders at HubSpot, they come in knowing that our culture is as important as our product.

It’s arguably our most valuable asset. And so, it's pretty rare that I would get feedback saying this isn't important to me oftentimes, it will be Hey, how do I prioritize this with other things? But I'm lucky enough to be working with an executive team and founders who all deeply care about this because it's one of the reasons they chose to join HubSpot in the first place.

Topic 6. How to Become a Great Place to Work? (24:13)

Jeff Hunt:

Exactly, and the culture code seems as though it's one of these things that is truly a competitive differentiator. And there's this whole concept of wow HubSpot put it out there, and they're completely transparent people could copy it, but isn't the reality that although you put it out there culture is something that's incredibly difficult to create. So, even though somebody might try to copy it, it's very hard to do that, right?

Katie Burke:

Yeah. So, I think there are two common misconceptions about the culture code, one is we put it out there, so it's easy to copy. The genius is certainly in Dharmesh's copywriting and in his willingness to put it out there before it was popular to do so. But what he would say is the execution between what we do the rhetoric and reality is really where we've shined as a company, and so that you can't do one without the other.

The second thing I would say is most other organizations are so focused on appealing to everyone with their culture code, that they distill the culture code down to a bunch of platitudes that are just high level, I want to work with great people and do great things. Well, who doesn't? No one's gonna say, Oh, I really want to work with mediocre people on a not mission-driven business that destroys the universe. And so, as a result, most culture codes are a) built by consensus, b) pretty boring to read and c) as likely to make you want to work there as me even though we're very different human beings.

And so what I always say about the culture code is there some people who read about our culture of autonomy and transparency, and they're like, I am good, I am all set, I would much rather have clarity on what I need to do in great detail. If that's the case, that means you've succeeded. And that's not to say that your culture code can be exclusionary or not inclusive. But it should actually give people a sense of what types of people succeed and thrive at HubSpot and what folks would say, hey, maybe if I need a little bit more guidance, it may not be the best place for me.

And so I actually think the genius of the culture code was absolutely Dharmesh’s kind of wit and vision and putting it out there, but it's also been the follow-up and through and how seriously, we make that commitment. And it was the willingness to be remarkable and to say some things in there that may not be for everyone.

Jeff Hunt:

Do you see the culture code as being something that is still who you are today, and also aspirational?

Katie Burke:

Yes, all of the above, like there are things that we have said in there that we've actually delivered on and then backtracked on throughout the different years. I think I would probably give us, I haven't done this every single year but I'd give us different grades every year on different elements of the culture code, and some of them would go backward and then forwards.

And so what I really like about it from my perspective is a) It's a living document, we still iterate on it and still update the slides from time to time, but b) that it still feels aspirational all these years later, because I still think, so as an example, we talk about hiring to elevate versus delegate. Well, there are times when I get feedback on my own micromanagement or oversight of something where I go a little too far on this front.

Okay, that's good feedback for me but it also means we're probably veering too far in one direction. And so I think the answer is yes, and so oftentimes, people will say to me, like, how do you stay motivated? That same document is still as aspirational to me as it was when I started in HubSpot 10 years ago because I still don't think we've perfected the execution on it.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow, that's really meaningful. It's sort of like the Constitution, it was written so well, that, you know, you have minor changes, but it's still incredibly meaningful.

Katie Burke:

So, that's one of the many reasons that I love Hamilton so much. And I always say to our team, like one of my favorite lines if you stand for nothing, what will you fall for? And so from my perspective, the Constitution is not perfect, as we're finding out in so many different parts of our political environment at the moment but it certainly has lasted the test of time.

It's caused some interesting debate even now, and so that's kind of how we think about it the culture code of your changing your culture code. One of the questions I often get is like, how often should you change it? If you're changing it every two weeks, there's probably something a little of it doesn't provide a meaningful NorthStar for people to work towards.

Jeff Hunt:

Exactly. So for those of you that are not familiar with the culture code, go to the HubSpot website and it's right there. So you can read through it. So, Katie, I have one more question for you before I switch you to some lightning-round questions. It's really about your IPO, so I was thinking back on HubSpot in history, and you've been through this incredible transformation from 400 some odd employees to over 7000. And it seems like, through the IPO, your executive team really understood the value of culture, and do you feel like that has been really what has led to your astronomical growth?

Katie Burke:

So I credit one cool thing that most people don't know about an IPO is behind the scenes you work for months of your life with a bunch of bankers and lawyers telling your story. And you think about that as an investor document. And of course, it is an investor document because it's eventually used to sell shares of your company.

But what it forces you to do in some ways, almost every company should do it regardless of whether they're going through a financing event because it really forces you to be honest about what is going to take you to the next level as a company. And so we like any tech company at the time, we're very focused at first on our financials, our numbers, our growth, our retention, things like that. And of course, those things are all critical ingredients.

But one of the things we heard over and over and over again, from our bankers, from our lawyers, from all the folks who were advising us on this stuff was how much an enduring mission and vision and an enduring team and culture really make a difference. And we are nerds at HubSpot and the best and most endearing way possible. And so the other thing we did was we studied organizations that scaled as we did, and our founders were super excited.

They did not want the IPO to be a day, the celebration, you know, we were so proud to ring the bell at the New York Stock Exchange that was not the finish line for us, it was the starting point and we were so explicit about that. And so, when you know that it becomes easier to go, Okay, what did the organizations that created a ton of value for investors and customers long after their IPO? What did they have in common?

Well, it turns out, it's exactly what we talked about, which is a really compelling mission that scales, with great vision, but also a really strong team and commitment to a culture that's super clear. And so when we started coming back to that we go, okay, if it's about that, we should spend even more calories than we currently do focused on that.

And so really, our founders and our president David Sherman were kinds of the folks who said, Okay, we have the culture code, we probably need to do even more and they were the people that tapped me on the shoulder to do culture work full time. I said no, a few times because I didn't know better and it sounded like a dead end. But I truly credit them with seeing how much we needed to invest there.

And basically, what we did was we started with a very small team and a very small budget and our entire mission were to close the gap between who we said we were and who we wanted to be. And it led to some really cool innovations, it led to us being able to be super experimental with the type of culture we want to create, and it was the foundation for now, what's a global People Operations team that gets to do a lot of really cool, meaningful work.

Topic 7. Lighting Round (35:00)

Jeff Hunt:

I love that it's truly a long-term strategy. Okay, I'm going to shift you into some lightning-round questions. The first one is what are you most grateful for?

Katie Burke:

I'm most grateful for my team. I think my team has been through just a lot. We've been through incredible, incredible growth, and then also incredible uncertainty, and on any given day, they're navigating both. And I feel really lucky, in particular, to have a leadership team that I can trust with good news trust with bad news, and everything in between and so I'm feeling very grateful for my team.

Jeff Hunt:

What is the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Katie Burke:

Honestly, coming back to our therapy, conversation, it's never about you, it's always about the team, and when you make it about you, you inevitably fail or fall short of your expectations. The other thing I would just say is, that it's not enough to think about how you're growing your team and your impact, you have to think about how you're scaling yourself as a leader. So lots in there, and lots for me to continue improving on.

Jeff Hunt:

Who's one person you would interview if you could living or not?

Katie Burke:

Oh, Michelle Obama is up there on my list and then Marian Wright Edelman, the person that a woman who I've looked up to my whole life, those are the two women I would love to interview.

Jeff Hunt:

And are you a reader Katie? Do you have any top book recommendations?

Katie Burke:

I am an avid reader and I am a huge believer in reading. So, my mom growing up was a big proponent that kids should read anything and everything. So, she encouraged us to read, you know, long leadership books and historical Tomes, but also encouraged us to read things that were light and fluffy. And so this summer, I've been trying to read a lot of beach reading to keep things light on this front but of course, I love anything Brene Brown-related and always keep coming back to her wisdom on that front. And so if I'm ever lost in the leadership wilderness, that's one that I come back to.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay, so what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Katie Burke:

So my mom would always say to us when we were leaving for the first day of school, that the advice would be, no one eats lunch alone. So that was a big rule in our family if you were to ever go to school and say like, oh, you know, I went and I saw Jeff there, but I left him another table that was like, you know, you broke the rules in our families, and no one eats lunch alone.

I think from the start that's the tone in our family that you are meant to include other people, and that's part of your role. It was to be kind to other people and raise your hand if you know the answer. And you know, my mom's goal was to raise people who were competent, kind, and empathetic. She described it as kind women have great compassion. So that's what she always says to me and my sister, and that's kind of how I think about my overarching goal not just professionally, but personally as well.

Jeff Hunt:

She was a wise woman, no doubt.

Katie Burke: Super wise and she continues to be a huge influence on my life. So I'd say that's a big one for me.

Jeff Hunt:

That's great. So, Katie, as we wrap up, what's the most important takeaway you would want to leave listeners with today?

Katie Burke:

My takeaway is you have feedback from your employees that you know and have heard that you're not acting on rather than looking into this guy for the answer, look to their feedback and act on it.

Jeff Hunt:

Great, great advice. Thanks so much for coming to the show.

Katie Burke:

Thank you so much for having me, Jeff.

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Outro (38:14)

Closing music jingle/sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to the show this week. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. Let me know what you thought of this episode by emailing humancapitalgoalspan.com. Human capital is produced by GoalSpan. Subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. And please share this podcast with your colleagues, team, or friends. Thanks for being human kind.