78. Strategic Human Resources

Jeff Hunt:

Welcome to the Human Capital Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Hunt. We seem to talk about leadership, culture, and performance a lot on this show, but today we're going to focus on human resources, diving into how strategic HR delivers profoundly different results. According to Gartner, 70 percent of CEOs expect senior HR leaders to be central to enterprise strategy. But only about 55 percent of them say they meet this expectation. And with CFOs, only about 30 percent of them feel HR leaders are strategic. There are many reasons, but a key one is that only 20 percent of Fortune 250 CHROs have had experience outside the HR function. That experience can significantly help to build a more strategic mindset.

At the end of the day, the best HR professionals have made the transition from being compliance officers to strategic advisors. The strategic advisor is the one who is driving organizational change that delivers value. To explore all of this, I'm welcoming back to the mic a former guest. Donna Hamlin is an expert in corporate governance and strategic human capital management. Donna is CEO of BoardWise and is also a partner at the ToGo advisory group. I got to know Donna not only by interviewing her previously, but also by earning a professional board certification for myself through BoardWise. This certification has helped me in my role on multiple corporate boards, as well as in my current role as CEO of Goalspan.

Welcome Donna.

Donna Hamlin:

Thank you for inviting me.

Jeff Hunt:

We were chatting about your recent blog post before we started, which just to prepare our listeners. The title was Evolution of HR, from Enforcer to Empowerer. And I'm curious about that title. Tell me about that.

Donna Hamlin:

Well, just to warn people that I've been at this for many decades. So I was looking for the history of what my experience in HR has been. If you think five decades ago, there wasn't even HR. It was just called to go there for employee concerns that you might have. Right? And it was mostly to make sure that the payroll was right. And the documentation and the filings were done correctly. And that isn't what we know as HR today, but in that time, it was making sure that records were submitted correctly. And it was mostly being a cop to make sure that things were done properly. And it was another decade or so before.

Companies started to look at if we invest in the competencies of people going forward, we're going to do better. And that was a shift more into the professional development arena in training and coaching and career development of people, which moved HR more into being coaches. And as time went by, and there were all the new technologies and the access to data and things like that, that required more HR to become more consultative. And then finally, we're now in a new area where government and governance is. Looking at this and saying, gee, we need more understanding of the value of the employees as it relates to the outcomes of performance of the company and its revenues and all of those things that go with it.

So, it's been moving now into more of a role of a counselor or an advisor. So you go from sort of cop to coach to consultant to counselor, and at this point, as we look at the new rules that are coming out, especially ones that are being driven by the SEC, it's going to go almost into becoming a sage as we, as we go forward. And for those of you who may not follow what's happening with the SEC, the next rulings that are going to come out. Allegedly, they said by the end of this month, but it may be a little bit later are important for everybody and understand the SEC Commission has a committee called the investor advisory committee. Which means a lot of the focus of people who are putting money into things want to have a say and they are proposing unbelievable long list of human capital management measures that should be submitted in the filings and the list of things they want. They want headcount metrics, they want turnover metrics.

They want human capital measures and the objectives that are set by the company full rendering on board diversity topics. And it's that smoosh of things that aren't clear as to how to format that stuff yet. It's just under discussion. And if that committee presentation gets approved by the SEC at the end of the month, whoa, there is going to be a huge requirement. To collaborate between the heads of HR and the committees within the board that have to co-own what is going to get submitted. And to the extent that HR has usually just delivered info, it is now going to have to collaborate on the strategic thinking that justifies the directions that are going to be submitted with the data, which means that HR people are now sitting at the think table, not the delivery table.

And my observation to your earlier point about is an HR person ready for that role is the real question. I was very lucky in my young career. I worked at GE and I was doing a little bit of HR communication work in my first year there in my early twenties. And I got a call from the head of strategy who said, you're mine. And I said, I'm sorry. And he said, well, we have an under the 10 mentoring program and I was assigned you. He took me out of HR, brought me into strategy for two years. I learned so much.

Now I stayed with HR because I learned in the strategy stuff that many of the things that on paper were genius didn't get implemented well. And it had to do with the right talent in the chairs or the leadership was off. So understanding the connection of those two changed my abilities to think about HR strategically. Now that was a gift for me. Most of HR people don't have those gifts. So they've got to take time now to ancillarily learn those things so that they can sit in the chair in a new way. And that's going to be really important.

Jeff Hunt:

There's a lot to dive into, but one of the things I want to pick up on that you just said was the need for them to make this shift. And a lot of people listening might think, well, I know that I can grow in this area, but I really don't know how to do that. So what, how would you advise somebody who wants to strengthen their strategic thinking skills, their ability to deliver value to the organization in kind of a new way?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, there are plenty of options through most of the good universities on classes you can take or courses you can take on strategic thinking. I jokingly say Study all the futurists. You want to be Yoda. And if you can follow some of the futurists, that's going to give you a context in which to think, which you can do on your own. One of the best programs I know of is the Long Now Foundation, which is a nonprofit that gives you presentations from speakers all over the globe on hot topics. And it's

a whopping 8 a month to sign up for it.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow.

Donna Hamlin:

I follow that all the time as a way to stay in the future as the context for decisions that are made properly, so it's not that hard to do. It's just a discipline. Now, you can go to Harvard and take one of the classes on strategy as well, or the programs for governance oftentimes include that strategic thinking element to it. Those are all privileges that any of us can do, whether we're HR or not, and it just creates a different framework for wisdom.

Jeff Hunt:

Talking to non-HR professionals that might be listening. What does this perspective look like for them? How can they support their HR leaders? Should they also be strategic thinkers?

Donna Hamlin:

Of course.

Jeff Hunt:

Kind of a no-brainer.

Donna Hamlin:

Literally, it's all brain. You want to put a lot of that leadership around the table. What you're doing is adding HR in a different contributing way at that table. But yes, they all have to think that way and they have to be open to the diversity of thought around that table to create ideation. If you've got a group of leaders and, oh, by the way, HR comes in with a different thought, that team better be ready to take an alternative perspective into account because they may be learning more if they're listening and accepting, as opposed to just saying, you're an oddball. And that doesn't help.

So that's one. They have to be able to enjoy the diversity and the angles that may come out of that because you may, uh, with some really cool, creative alternatives that way. Now, the other is that HR is going to need support too because these are new reporting things and they're going to have to set up the infrastructure to be able to get that data. And the executive team has to be very supportive to make that affordable and implementable because it isn't that HR necessarily will have that data. They're going to have to work with other departments to get that kind of data.

So there's going to have to be some internal work and support there to make it possible. And it probably means for most HR groups getting some outside talent to help them for at least the first year to get it squared away. And once it's infrastructurally comfortable, you can maybe bring in another talent into the HR team that will be party to that.

Jeff Hunt:

Going back to what you said earlier, Donna, about this whole evolution of HR over the decades. Can you think of any personal anecdotes that have exemplified this shift from cop, say, to counselor, advisor? Are there any stories or experiences that you've been witness to that demonstrate what that impact can be?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, if you think in terms of the view of HR looking at not only the success of the business, but the care and investment in people, they will look at things with a stronger ethical eye than you might otherwise, and that's a value. I mean, if you take an example of a company that goes through drama, and the HR people will come in with a suggestion that's really important. There's a case that I was just studying a while ago that was Carling, the beer company, in England. Africa, and they had a huge account there, of course, covering it, but they were suffering watching that the number of violence and raping and deaths of women by men who are heavy drinkers was causing unbelievable issues within their whole area.

Now, that's a dilemma to figure out, should we leave? Should we not be party to it? Should we take an action when we are outside the country and we don't have any entitlements and rights? What can we do? And it was the marketing and the HR people that came and said, This is an ethical problem and we need to respond to it. And what they came up with was genius. They developed an entire campaign and they did it with groups together to Get all of the athletes that were famous in the area to wear banners on their arms and stand and then they rewrote a song in this big huge center where they were having an event and they took a song that was very famous and they rewrote the words and basically saying you don't hurt me honey and and it went around men who are proud are grateful Fathers and lovers and the whole song was redone and they had the athletes wearing it, singing it and getting the whole audience going. And in the two years thereafter, all of the stats went down. Wow. Now that's a beautiful story of HR and marketing looking at this differently than just sales.

Jeff Hunt:

And that required zooming out and having evaluating a lot of data points and having different conversations with different stakeholders, internal, external,

Donna Hamlin:

they were things through really hard on this, but it was such a beautiful story of success. And it's the typical way of looking at it with a little bit more playfulness. I mean, getting that song done. Yeah. Fun, but everybody liked it. And then they gave out awards to men who were really great representatives of what they were saying. So yes, you can have that sort of element in the group and HR is known well for doing that.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, that's a great example. So when we look at technology, you mentioned technology earlier and how technology, and you also talk about this in your blog post, how it's really provided. Data points that we didn't use to have. So when in the original phase of quote-unquote HR, where it was more cop-oriented, compliance-oriented, all of this strategic data was really not available and now it's available at our fingertips and I'm curious when you think about the different technologies, what do you feel has been the most transformative technology? in terms of shaping HR's role in organizations today? Oh

Donna Hamlin:

Yeah, well, the obvious one would be the AI initiatives that are coming out now. I'm working with another colleague who is doing new tools, AI tools for HR.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow.

Donna Hamlin:

To be able to handle some of the stuff that we're looking at today.

Jeff Hunt:

Definitely.

Donna Hamlin:

I'm not an AI person professionally, I just know that we have to look at it to make sure that it's accurate.

Jeff Hunt:

Definitely.

Donna Hamlin:

It's one thing to have artificial intelligence, but that's right. I jokingly say, is it artificial artificial?

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah.

Donna Hamlin:

Or is it actually working?

Jeff Hunt:

Yes.

Donna Hamlin:

And so I'm a little cautious, but HR people tend to be, and that's okay. And looking at those new tools that are under description now and then they're being designed customized is something HR people are going to have to look at save them from the labor of doing this any other way.

Jeff Hunt:

That makes sense. And if we shift and think more high level about how somebody who wants to become more of a counselor advisor can get there. It's usually going to require closer collaboration with executive leadership in different ways. I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, but what sort of challenges do you see coming that people need to be aware of that HR might face in that closer collaboration and trying to make this transition?

In other words, if I've been on the executive team and I really haven't been looked at as a strategic partner of the team, I'm not asking those critical questions. I'm not bringing a level of curiosity that's really important relative to making better decisions. What are some of those challenges and how can we overcome them?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, I think looking at your own set of skills and then testing a few things for the first time are going to be important and it'll cause people to sit up in their chair and say, "Who's this new person that I've never heard of before?" You know, the whole idea of creative problem solving, where you're bringing in a holistic view that others aren't seeing, is going to be an asset, whether you have the skill to do that. Versus, "I'm going to try it and see what happens," but that's the way you learn, right? It's also probably good to make sure that the people around the table are diverse.

So that you're getting those group discussions in a creative way so that you're just part of it. You're not the only one that's different. And so encouraging who's sitting around the table is important and learning how to ask really good questions. I mean, the ratio should be three questions to one declaration anyway, developing that skill so that you're creating more learning when you ask a question than when you make a declaration. So if you practice that, nobody's going to insult you for asking good questions. It's just going to stir up the conversation.

That's important to understand to do. And it helps you uncover facts or insights for the whole group, not just you. That's an important skill. I also think that anything in the way of coming up with futuristic scenarios. So that you're letting the group imagine with you, so that if there's a predicament and you're working around it together and you say, "What if it looked like this? What if it looked like this?" What you're creating is ideation that way, as opposed to being stuck with the root cause, which many groups sit and do. And that's a waste of time. I mean, it's okay to understand root cause, but really it's all about what do you want it to look like in the future? And then you're creating with your imagination improvements and that's more valuable.

These are skills that one has to be reflective about. Do I have them today or do I need to practice them so that I become pretty good at it? You know, most of the people who are really at that thought level are more like the sage that I was mentioning we're becoming, right? It's mostly about inquiry, active listening, and then stirring from what you learn, possibilities. And that's the most important skill, I think. Other than that, it's about calling people out if it's out of line.

Years ago, I had an HR job that I'd taken. I'd been there only a week and the top team was having a presentation by the CFO about something that we're going to present to their board. And it was surprising data that the CEO had not been told by the CFO first. Bad data, I mean, embarrassing. And the CEO got so mad. He picked up the glass that he had, he smashed it on the table and he ran out and went to his office and slammed the door and everybody was quiet. And I'd only been there five days. And I got up and I went into his office and I said, "You have every right to be upset by the surprise data, but you brought me here to create a high engagement culture.

And you just created a high enragement culture. That's not okay. You're going to have to come in with me and apologize." And he said, "I'm sorry, I just lost it." I said, "I know, but you've got to fix it." So he comes in and I put a little cup on the table and I said, he's going to put a dollar in for every cuss word he just said. And we're going out partying tonight with that money.

And he finally put like 50 bucks in and a little extra just in case. And everybody laughed and we settled down and it never happened again. That's the sort of thing you have to do to create reasonable opportunities for solving problems. You can have a bit of that style of sense of humor that gets everybody settled down and you can go forward. That's what HR is great at.

Jeff Hunt:

I appreciate that story because it underscores the importance of calling out inappropriate behavior. When we see it internally, it's really everybody's job to do that. By not doing it, it provides a level of complicity and it ultimately has the potential of changing the culture towards a negative bent rather than a positive bent. And that makes me think about the cultural aspects of strategic HR versus tactical HR. And when we think of the desire for a CEO or an executive team to have a strategic HR partner and a culture of strategic thinking, what are things that the CEO can do, especially, or the other people on the executive team, to make sure that we're evolving a culture that is really welcoming this type of strategic thinking?

Donna Hamlin:

I think it's prudent to have more one-on-one time with HR to think out loud. I also think it's going to change naturally because the governance model is changing. What used to be the compensation committee is now the human capital management committee. And that collaboration is going to have to be solid between HR and that. And once they have that sort of relationship going, it changes the whole acceptance level of how people are going to think on this. It's no longer, "I'm reporting in data." I'm actually a thinker with you now. And if the CEO is endorsing and collaborating in that way, then you've got a winner.

If you're in HR with a CEO who hates all of this and doesn't want to contribute, probably go get another job. It's not going to be fun. You need to call it if you see it and you know, you're not there to arm wrestle with somebody, you're there to help. If the attitude is wrong, then you probably want your career to be in a direction where it's going to be valuable, not just an argument.

Jeff Hunt:

How do we assess our strength in this area as an organization or as an executive team? Is this done through 360s? Is it done through surveys? What are some methods that we can employ to really understand not only our strength or weakness in this area now, but ongoing being able to look at us as a trend, look at our organization as a trend?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, there's a few ways. One, you can certainly take a look at the culture. And yes, you'd want to take a look at that with a survey or some in-depth interviews to get a sense for the culture. We do an inclusion survey a lot with clients. And that's helpful. And if you're getting themes that are strong, and then there's some that are weak, then you would start to work on the things that need improvement just in the board level.

There was a woman in Chicago who reached out to me a few months ago, because there was a board that felt that the group dynamics weren't healthy. And they asked her to sit in on the board meeting and then give feedback at the end. And she called me and said, "Is this a thing? Should I be doing this with you?" And I said, "I don't know if it's a thing, but obviously they were wise enough to test their own dynamics in a way that would be helpful. So we've done a few little videos with her on what do you do when you observe that behavior and how to course correct.

That can be done for the executive function too, to just take a look at how we do at the table. And have a third party that's going to take a look at that and create alternatives to the group dynamics wanting to do." We also have a tool that we have created, a psychometric modeling tool that looks at orientation to problem solving. You filled that out as part of it.

Yes, that's right. That we use for both management teams as well as for boards to take a look at what is the problem-solving orientation I bring compared to yours with the encouragement to create teams that have different styles. They're all good. They just come from different angles. And when you do that, we do know from all the research that the quality of the decision goes up if teams move from frustration, because I think this way and that jerk thinks that way instead says, "Wow, let me think with you on that.

That's a different way of looking at it than I ever even considered." Then you're creating a different value and it's no longer frustration. It's appreciation. Or, you know, if the style is on a run and it's just too much, you can laugh and say, "You're doing that again." Yeah. And you just calm down. You're not frustrated. You're just amused. And that creates a different culture, which is important.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. Well, and it feels like what you're sort of mentioning is the diversity of ensuring that you have the diversity of all aspects, both competencies, both viewpoints, people, diversity. Is going to ultimately have the ROI because you're going to be making better decisions as an organization. Those that are in the interest of your all of your stakeholders, correct?

Donna Hamlin:

Right, yeah. And to be fair, when it sits in and one of those meetings is the one that is looking for the span more often than others of all parties. Making sure all parties, it can be the suppliers, it can be the employees, it can be the stakeholders, it can be the shareholders, they represent in their thinking that whatever decision is made is. Accounting for the whole, not just one particular.

Now, there's also a style of thinking called Uniter that does the same thing, whether it's HR or not. But yes, you want that as part of decisions, because otherwise, if a group is thinking with interim solutions, which is very common. Well, we don't have the big answer, but we'll take this for step one. Somebody with that style will say, "I don't know. I think we gotta work on this a little harder." And that will annoy the group that just take a step. Right.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah.

Donna Hamlin:

HR people are more often known for their gift in diplomacy skills. So if anybody's going to bring it forward and say, "We need to think about this harder," better than an HR person, I don't know who it would be. And by virtue of their grace in that style, people who normally would be cranky about it would say, "Yeah, sure, okay, let's go back and work on it again." Because the style of the problem-solving can be instead of intermittent stages more holistic. Yeah.

See that with groups that were, and it tends to be quite true that in the brain wiring is different for men and women. Although now you can change your brain. There's some work you can do. So it doesn't really matter whether it's a man or woman, but historically the woman's brainwave pattern is such that they look at more problem-solving whole, and they weigh a lot of different variables. Whereas the alternative brain pattern is to just think about a contemporary solution. We'll fix it over stages, right? So if you're with a group that has more of that style of holistic thinking, it takes longer to get to the decision because they have to count for so many variables.

And I worked with a gentleman who was on two different groups. One was all men and another one was a mix with women. And he said, "Oh, I just can't stand going to those meetings with the long one because it takes forever for them to get to a decision." And the other one, at least we make a swift one. And I said, "Which group is performing better with outcomes?" Along with the women? I said, "I think the issue is your lack of patience with making that is you, honey, not so understanding that. That is part of the choice that anybody, HR any role should have to take into account as to where is my best fit or what do I have to do with my skills to make me a good fit?" Yeah, it's about being a permanent student.

Jeff Hunt:

I love how you've also underscored the importance of neuroplasticity and everyone's ability to grow in a key area. Yeah. So. Yeah. And if people are getting frustrated because they do feel like it's taking too long and they have more of a sense of urgency, that's always an opportunity to explore, you know, why is it that I feel that sense of urgency? If I unpack that, I'm probably going to get some really good fodder under there to help me grow and become a more patient person who is willing to explore and then ultimately make better decisions.

Donna Hamlin:

That's right.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. So, well, as we wrap up, I'm going to shift you into some lightning round questions, which I asked you a long time ago, and I bet you don't remember them, which is great because they're all going to be fresh. And the first one, Donna, is what are you most grateful for?

Donna Hamlin:

Oh, for the opportunities I've had to learn in so many different countries and with groups of people. I've worked in 54 countries now.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow. That is phenomenal.

Donna Hamlin:

My definition of success was how many countries could I go to after all of that work and knock on a door of someone I'd worked with and they would take me in. And when I got to about 35, I thought, you know, I'm blessed.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Donna Hamlin:

How to handle really complex ethical matters and be successful with it. That's a challenge. It's, it's loaded with challenges for you as a person to have to do it. And then there's the stress of what happens if it doesn't work and getting out alive.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that.

Donna Hamlin:

Yeah.

Jeff Hunt:

Who is one person you would interview if you could living or not?

Donna Hamlin:

Stephen Hawking.

Jeff Hunt:

What's your top book recommendation?

Donna Hamlin:

Of late?

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah.

Donna Hamlin:

Anything on new computer futures and all of the things that we're looking at for. How we're, how the technology is going to change our world.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Donna Hamlin:

Always, always be a student.

Jeff Hunt:

And if you had to summarize all of this rich conversation we've had, what are some of the most key takeaways to leave our listeners with?

Donna Hamlin:

That's it. No one in HR should be afraid of this future. It's, it can feel a little overwhelming when you're reading all of these things that are going to come at you. Try not to be overwhelmed by it, but to get excited by finding support, resources. things that will help you and conversations with your executive team so that you're creating the right facility to, to go forward and then be excited because you're no longer a cop or a coach or a consultant. You are a sage and that's going to be a very different life experience and you'll like it.

Jeff Hunt:

Where can people find you and learn more about what you're doing and whether or not they might benefit?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, our website is BoardWise. biz. Anytime one can reach out and read a little bit more. We have a newsletter that goes out once a month on hot topics like this. So you could always sign up for that. It's free. And then you can always reach me at [phone number]. Donna, I've loved our conversation.

Jeff Hunt:

Thank you for bringing so much wisdom to the show.

Donna Hamlin: Well, thank you for the opportunity. It's always great to see you. Jeff Hunt:

Welcome to the Human Capital Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Hunt. We seem to talk about leadership, culture, and performance a lot on this show, but today we're going to focus on human resources, diving into how strategic HR delivers profoundly different results. According to Gartner, 70 percent of CEOs expect senior HR leaders to be central to enterprise strategy. But only about 55 percent of them say they meet this expectation. And with CFOs, only about 30 percent of them feel HR leaders are strategic. There are many reasons, but a key one is that only 20 percent of Fortune 250 CHROs have had experience outside the HR function. That experience can significantly help to build a more strategic mindset.

At the end of the day, the best HR professionals have made the transition from being compliance officers to strategic advisors. The strategic advisor is the one who is driving organizational change that delivers value. To explore all of this, I'm welcoming back to the mic a former guest. Donna Hamlin is an expert in corporate governance and strategic human capital management. Donna is CEO of BoardWise and is also a partner at the ToGo advisory group. I got to know Donna not only by interviewing her previously, but also by earning a professional board certification for myself through BoardWise. This certification has helped me in my role on multiple corporate boards, as well as in my current role as CEO of Goalspan.

Welcome Donna.

Donna Hamlin:

Thank you for inviting me.

Jeff Hunt:

We were chatting about your recent blog post before we started, which just to prepare our listeners. The title was Evolution of HR, from Enforcer to Empowerer. And I'm curious about that title. Tell me about that.

Donna Hamlin:

Well, just to warn people that I've been at this for many decades. So I was looking for the history of what my experience in HR has been. If you think five decades ago, there wasn't even HR. It was just called to go there for employee concerns that you might have. Right? And it was mostly to make sure that the payroll was right. And the documentation and the filings were done correctly. And that isn't what we know as HR today, but in that time, it was making sure that records were submitted correctly. And it was mostly being a cop to make sure that things were done properly. And it was another decade or so before.

Companies started to look at if we invest in the competencies of people going forward, we're going to do better. And that was a shift more into the professional development arena in training and coaching and career development of people, which moved HR more into being coaches. And as time went by, and there were all the new technologies and the access to data and things like that, that required more HR to become more consultative. And then finally, we're now in a new area where government and governance is. Looking at this and saying, gee, we need more understanding of the value of the employees as it relates to the outcomes of performance of the company and its revenues and all of those things that go with it.

So, it's been moving now into more of a role of a counselor or an advisor. So you go from sort of cop to coach to consultant to counselor, and at this point, as we look at the new rules that are coming out, especially ones that are being driven by the SEC, it's going to go almost into becoming a sage as we, as we go forward. And for those of you who may not follow what's happening with the SEC, the next rulings that are going to come out. Allegedly, they said by the end of this month, but it may be a little bit later are important for everybody and understand the SEC Commission has a committee called the investor advisory committee. Which means a lot of the focus of people who are putting money into things want to have a say and they are proposing unbelievable long list of human capital management measures that should be submitted in the filings and the list of things they want. They want headcount metrics, they want turnover metrics.

They want human capital measures and the objectives that are set by the company full rendering on board diversity topics. And it's that smoosh of things that aren't clear as to how to format that stuff yet. It's just under discussion. And if that committee presentation gets approved by the SEC at the end of the month, whoa, there is going to be a huge requirement. To collaborate between the heads of HR and the committees within the board that have to co-own what is going to get submitted. And to the extent that HR has usually just delivered info, it is now going to have to collaborate on the strategic thinking that justifies the directions that are going to be submitted with the data, which means that HR people are now sitting at the think table, not the delivery table.

And my observation to your earlier point about is an HR person ready for that role is the real question. I was very lucky in my young career. I worked at GE and I was doing a little bit of HR communication work in my first year there in my early twenties. And I got a call from the head of strategy who said, you're mine. And I said, I'm sorry. And he said, well, we have an under the 10 mentoring program and I was assigned you. He took me out of HR, brought me into strategy for two years. I learned so much.

Now I stayed with HR because I learned in the strategy stuff that many of the things that on paper were genius didn't get implemented well. And it had to do with the right talent in the chairs or the leadership was off. So understanding the connection of those two changed my abilities to think about HR strategically. Now that was a gift for me. Most of HR people don't have those gifts. So they've got to take time now to ancillarily learn those things so that they can sit in the chair in a new way. And that's going to be really important.

Jeff Hunt:

There's a lot to dive into, but one of the things I want to pick up on that you just said was the need for them to make this shift. And a lot of people listening might think, well, I know that I can grow in this area, but I really don't know how to do that. So what, how would you advise somebody who wants to strengthen their strategic thinking skills, their ability to deliver value to the organization in kind of a new way?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, there are plenty of options through most of the good universities on classes you can take or courses you can take on strategic thinking. I jokingly say Study all the futurists. You want to be Yoda. And if you can follow some of the futurists, that's going to give you a context in which to think, which you can do on your own. One of the best programs I know of is the Long Now Foundation, which is a nonprofit that gives you presentations from speakers all over the globe on hot topics. And it's

a whopping 8 a month to sign up for it.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow.

Donna Hamlin:

I follow that all the time as a way to stay in the future as the context for decisions that are made properly, so it's not that hard to do. It's just a discipline. Now, you can go to Harvard and take one of the classes on strategy as well, or the programs for governance oftentimes include that strategic thinking element to it. Those are all privileges that any of us can do, whether we're HR or not, and it just creates a different framework for wisdom.

Jeff Hunt:

Talking to non-HR professionals that might be listening. What does this perspective look like for them? How can they support their HR leaders? Should they also be strategic thinkers?

Donna Hamlin:

Of course.

Jeff Hunt:

Kind of a no-brainer.

Donna Hamlin:

Literally, it's all brain. You want to put a lot of that leadership around the table. What you're doing is adding HR in a different contributing way at that table. But yes, they all have to think that way and they have to be open to the diversity of thought around that table to create ideation. If you've got a group of leaders and, oh, by the way, HR comes in with a different thought, that team better be ready to take an alternative perspective into account because they may be learning more if they're listening and accepting, as opposed to just saying, you're an oddball. And that doesn't help.

So that's one. They have to be able to enjoy the diversity and the angles that may come out of that because you may, uh, with some really cool, creative alternatives that way. Now, the other is that HR is going to need support too because these are new reporting things and they're going to have to set up the infrastructure to be able to get that data. And the executive team has to be very supportive to make that affordable and implementable because it isn't that HR necessarily will have that data. They're going to have to work with other departments to get that kind of data.

So there's going to have to be some internal work and support there to make it possible. And it probably means for most HR groups getting some outside talent to help them for at least the first year to get it squared away. And once it's infrastructurally comfortable, you can maybe bring in another talent into the HR team that will be party to that.

Jeff Hunt:

Going back to what you said earlier, Donna, about this whole evolution of HR over the decades. Can you think of any personal anecdotes that have exemplified this shift from cop, say, to counselor, advisor? Are there any stories or experiences that you've been witness to that demonstrate what that impact can be?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, if you think in terms of the view of HR looking at not only the success of the business, but the care and investment in people, they will look at things with a stronger ethical eye than you might otherwise, and that's a value. I mean, if you take an example of a company that goes through drama, and the HR people will come in with a suggestion that's really important. There's a case that I was just studying a while ago that was Carling, the beer company, in England. Africa, and they had a huge account there, of course, covering it, but they were suffering watching that the number of violence and raping and deaths of women by men who are heavy drinkers was causing unbelievable issues within their whole area.

Now, that's a dilemma to figure out, should we leave? Should we not be party to it? Should we take an action when we are outside the country and we don't have any entitlements and rights? What can we do? And it was the marketing and the HR people that came and said, This is an ethical problem and we need to respond to it. And what they came up with was genius. They developed an entire campaign and they did it with groups together to Get all of the athletes that were famous in the area to wear banners on their arms and stand and then they rewrote a song in this big huge center where they were having an event and they took a song that was very famous and they rewrote the words and basically saying you don't hurt me honey and and it went around men who are proud are grateful Fathers and lovers and the whole song was redone and they had the athletes wearing it, singing it and getting the whole audience going. And in the two years thereafter, all of the stats went down. Wow. Now that's a beautiful story of HR and marketing looking at this differently than just sales.

Jeff Hunt:

And that required zooming out and having evaluating a lot of data points and having different conversations with different stakeholders, internal, external,

Donna Hamlin:

they were things through really hard on this, but it was such a beautiful story of success. And it's the typical way of looking at it with a little bit more playfulness. I mean, getting that song done. Yeah. Fun, but everybody liked it. And then they gave out awards to men who were really great representatives of what they were saying. So yes, you can have that sort of element in the group and HR is known well for doing that.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, that's a great example. So when we look at technology, you mentioned technology earlier and how technology, and you also talk about this in your blog post, how it's really provided. Data points that we didn't use to have. So when in the original phase of quote-unquote HR, where it was more cop-oriented, compliance-oriented, all of this strategic data was really not available and now it's available at our fingertips and I'm curious when you think about the different technologies, what do you feel has been the most transformative technology? in terms of shaping HR's role in organizations today? Oh

Donna Hamlin:

Yeah, well, the obvious one would be the AI initiatives that are coming out now. I'm working with another colleague who is doing new tools, AI tools for HR.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow.

Donna Hamlin:

To be able to handle some of the stuff that we're looking at today.

Jeff Hunt:

Definitely.

Donna Hamlin:

I'm not an AI person professionally, I just know that we have to look at it to make sure that it's accurate.

Jeff Hunt:

Definitely.

Donna Hamlin:

It's one thing to have artificial intelligence, but that's right. I jokingly say, is it artificial artificial?

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah.

Donna Hamlin:

Or is it actually working?

Jeff Hunt:

Yes.

Donna Hamlin:

And so I'm a little cautious, but HR people tend to be, and that's okay. And looking at those new tools that are under description now and then they're being designed customized is something HR people are going to have to look at save them from the labor of doing this any other way.

Jeff Hunt:

That makes sense. And if we shift and think more high level about how somebody who wants to become more of a counselor advisor can get there. It's usually going to require closer collaboration with executive leadership in different ways. I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, but what sort of challenges do you see coming that people need to be aware of that HR might face in that closer collaboration and trying to make this transition?

In other words, if I've been on the executive team and I really haven't been looked at as a strategic partner of the team, I'm not asking those critical questions. I'm not bringing a level of curiosity that's really important relative to making better decisions. What are some of those challenges and how can we overcome them?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, I think looking at your own set of skills and then testing a few things for the first time are going to be important and it'll cause people to sit up in their chair and say, "Who's this new person that I've never heard of before?" You know, the whole idea of creative problem solving, where you're bringing in a holistic view that others aren't seeing, is going to be an asset, whether you have the skill to do that. Versus, "I'm going to try it and see what happens," but that's the way you learn, right? It's also probably good to make sure that the people around the table are diverse.

So that you're getting those group discussions in a creative way so that you're just part of it. You're not the only one that's different. And so encouraging who's sitting around the table is important and learning how to ask really good questions. I mean, the ratio should be three questions to one declaration anyway, developing that skill so that you're creating more learning when you ask a question than when you make a declaration. So if you practice that, nobody's going to insult you for asking good questions. It's just going to stir up the conversation.

That's important to understand to do. And it helps you uncover facts or insights for the whole group, not just you. That's an important skill. I also think that anything in the way of coming up with futuristic scenarios. So that you're letting the group imagine with you, so that if there's a predicament and you're working around it together and you say, "What if it looked like this? What if it looked like this?" What you're creating is ideation that way, as opposed to being stuck with the root cause, which many groups sit and do. And that's a waste of time. I mean, it's okay to understand root cause, but really it's all about what do you want it to look like in the future? And then you're creating with your imagination improvements and that's more valuable.

These are skills that one has to be reflective about. Do I have them today or do I need to practice them so that I become pretty good at it? You know, most of the people who are really at that thought level are more like the sage that I was mentioning we're becoming, right? It's mostly about inquiry, active listening, and then stirring from what you learn, possibilities. And that's the most important skill, I think. Other than that, it's about calling people out if it's out of line.

Years ago, I had an HR job that I'd taken. I'd been there only a week and the top team was having a presentation by the CFO about something that we're going to present to their board. And it was surprising data that the CEO had not been told by the CFO first. Bad data, I mean, embarrassing. And the CEO got so mad. He picked up the glass that he had, he smashed it on the table and he ran out and went to his office and slammed the door and everybody was quiet. And I'd only been there five days. And I got up and I went into his office and I said, "You have every right to be upset by the surprise data, but you brought me here to create a high engagement culture.

And you just created a high enragement culture. That's not okay. You're going to have to come in with me and apologize." And he said, "I'm sorry, I just lost it." I said, "I know, but you've got to fix it." So he comes in and I put a little cup on the table and I said, he's going to put a dollar in for every cuss word he just said. And we're going out partying tonight with that money.

And he finally put like 50 bucks in and a little extra just in case. And everybody laughed and we settled down and it never happened again. That's the sort of thing you have to do to create reasonable opportunities for solving problems. You can have a bit of that style of sense of humor that gets everybody settled down and you can go forward. That's what HR is great at.

Jeff Hunt:

I appreciate that story because it underscores the importance of calling out inappropriate behavior. When we see it internally, it's really everybody's job to do that. By not doing it, it provides a level of complicity and it ultimately has the potential of changing the culture towards a negative bent rather than a positive bent. And that makes me think about the cultural aspects of strategic HR versus tactical HR. And when we think of the desire for a CEO or an executive team to have a strategic HR partner and a culture of strategic thinking, what are things that the CEO can do, especially, or the other people on the executive team, to make sure that we're evolving a culture that is really welcoming this type of strategic thinking?

Donna Hamlin:

I think it's prudent to have more one-on-one time with HR to think out loud. I also think it's going to change naturally because the governance model is changing. What used to be the compensation committee is now the human capital management committee. And that collaboration is going to have to be solid between HR and that. And once they have that sort of relationship going, it changes the whole acceptance level of how people are going to think on this. It's no longer, "I'm reporting in data." I'm actually a thinker with you now. And if the CEO is endorsing and collaborating in that way, then you've got a winner.

If you're in HR with a CEO who hates all of this and doesn't want to contribute, probably go get another job. It's not going to be fun. You need to call it if you see it and you know, you're not there to arm wrestle with somebody, you're there to help. If the attitude is wrong, then you probably want your career to be in a direction where it's going to be valuable, not just an argument.

Jeff Hunt:

How do we assess our strength in this area as an organization or as an executive team? Is this done through 360s? Is it done through surveys? What are some methods that we can employ to really understand not only our strength or weakness in this area now, but ongoing being able to look at us as a trend, look at our organization as a trend?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, there's a few ways. One, you can certainly take a look at the culture. And yes, you'd want to take a look at that with a survey or some in-depth interviews to get a sense for the culture. We do an inclusion survey a lot with clients. And that's helpful. And if you're getting themes that are strong, and then there's some that are weak, then you would start to work on the things that need improvement just in the board level.

There was a woman in Chicago who reached out to me a few months ago, because there was a board that felt that the group dynamics weren't healthy. And they asked her to sit in on the board meeting and then give feedback at the end. And she called me and said, "Is this a thing? Should I be doing this with you?" And I said, "I don't know if it's a thing, but obviously they were wise enough to test their own dynamics in a way that would be helpful. So we've done a few little videos with her on what do you do when you observe that behavior and how to course correct.

That can be done for the executive function too, to just take a look at how we do at the table. And have a third party that's going to take a look at that and create alternatives to the group dynamics wanting to do." We also have a tool that we have created, a psychometric modeling tool that looks at orientation to problem solving. You filled that out as part of it.

Yes, that's right. That we use for both management teams as well as for boards to take a look at what is the problem-solving orientation I bring compared to yours with the encouragement to create teams that have different styles. They're all good. They just come from different angles. And when you do that, we do know from all the research that the quality of the decision goes up if teams move from frustration, because I think this way and that jerk thinks that way instead says, "Wow, let me think with you on that.

That's a different way of looking at it than I ever even considered." Then you're creating a different value and it's no longer frustration. It's appreciation. Or, you know, if the style is on a run and it's just too much, you can laugh and say, "You're doing that again." Yeah. And you just calm down. You're not frustrated. You're just amused. And that creates a different culture, which is important.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. Well, and it feels like what you're sort of mentioning is the diversity of ensuring that you have the diversity of all aspects, both competencies, both viewpoints, people, diversity. Is going to ultimately have the ROI because you're going to be making better decisions as an organization. Those that are in the interest of your all of your stakeholders, correct?

Donna Hamlin:

Right, yeah. And to be fair, when it sits in and one of those meetings is the one that is looking for the span more often than others of all parties. Making sure all parties, it can be the suppliers, it can be the employees, it can be the stakeholders, it can be the shareholders, they represent in their thinking that whatever decision is made is. Accounting for the whole, not just one particular.

Now, there's also a style of thinking called Uniter that does the same thing, whether it's HR or not. But yes, you want that as part of decisions, because otherwise, if a group is thinking with interim solutions, which is very common. Well, we don't have the big answer, but we'll take this for step one. Somebody with that style will say, "I don't know. I think we gotta work on this a little harder." And that will annoy the group that just take a step. Right.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah.

Donna Hamlin:

HR people are more often known for their gift in diplomacy skills. So if anybody's going to bring it forward and say, "We need to think about this harder," better than an HR person, I don't know who it would be. And by virtue of their grace in that style, people who normally would be cranky about it would say, "Yeah, sure, okay, let's go back and work on it again." Because the style of the problem-solving can be instead of intermittent stages more holistic. Yeah.

See that with groups that were, and it tends to be quite true that in the brain wiring is different for men and women. Although now you can change your brain. There's some work you can do. So it doesn't really matter whether it's a man or woman, but historically the woman's brainwave pattern is such that they look at more problem-solving whole, and they weigh a lot of different variables. Whereas the alternative brain pattern is to just think about a contemporary solution. We'll fix it over stages, right? So if you're with a group that has more of that style of holistic thinking, it takes longer to get to the decision because they have to count for so many variables.

And I worked with a gentleman who was on two different groups. One was all men and another one was a mix with women. And he said, "Oh, I just can't stand going to those meetings with the long one because it takes forever for them to get to a decision." And the other one, at least we make a swift one. And I said, "Which group is performing better with outcomes?" Along with the women? I said, "I think the issue is your lack of patience with making that is you, honey, not so understanding that. That is part of the choice that anybody, HR any role should have to take into account as to where is my best fit or what do I have to do with my skills to make me a good fit?" Yeah, it's about being a permanent student.

Jeff Hunt:

I love how you've also underscored the importance of neuroplasticity and everyone's ability to grow in a key area. Yeah. So. Yeah. And if people are getting frustrated because they do feel like it's taking too long and they have more of a sense of urgency, that's always an opportunity to explore, you know, why is it that I feel that sense of urgency? If I unpack that, I'm probably going to get some really good fodder under there to help me grow and become a more patient person who is willing to explore and then ultimately make better decisions.

Donna Hamlin:

That's right.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. So, well, as we wrap up, I'm going to shift you into some lightning round questions, which I asked you a long time ago, and I bet you don't remember them, which is great because they're all going to be fresh. And the first one, Donna, is what are you most grateful for?

Donna Hamlin:

Oh, for the opportunities I've had to learn in so many different countries and with groups of people. I've worked in 54 countries now.

Jeff Hunt:

Wow. That is phenomenal.

Donna Hamlin:

My definition of success was how many countries could I go to after all of that work and knock on a door of someone I'd worked with and they would take me in. And when I got to about 35, I thought, you know, I'm blessed.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Donna Hamlin:

How to handle really complex ethical matters and be successful with it. That's a challenge. It's, it's loaded with challenges for you as a person to have to do it. And then there's the stress of what happens if it doesn't work and getting out alive.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that.

Donna Hamlin:

Yeah.

Jeff Hunt:

Who is one person you would interview if you could living or not?

Donna Hamlin:

Stephen Hawking.

Jeff Hunt:

What's your top book recommendation?

Donna Hamlin:

Of late?

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah.

Donna Hamlin:

Anything on new computer futures and all of the things that we're looking at for. How we're, how the technology is going to change our world.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Donna Hamlin:

Always, always be a student.

Jeff Hunt:

And if you had to summarize all of this rich conversation we've had, what are some of the most key takeaways to leave our listeners with?

Donna Hamlin:

That's it. No one in HR should be afraid of this future. It's, it can feel a little overwhelming when you're reading all of these things that are going to come at you. Try not to be overwhelmed by it, but to get excited by finding support, resources. things that will help you and conversations with your executive team so that you're creating the right facility to, to go forward and then be excited because you're no longer a cop or a coach or a consultant. You are a sage and that's going to be a very different life experience and you'll like it.

Jeff Hunt:

Where can people find you and learn more about what you're doing and whether or not they might benefit?

Donna Hamlin:

Well, our website is BoardWise. biz. Anytime one can reach out and read a little bit more. We have a newsletter that goes out once a month on hot topics like this. So you could always sign up for that. It's free. And then you can always reach me at [phone number]. Donna, I've loved our conversation.

Jeff Hunt:

Thank you for bringing so much wisdom to the show.

Donna Hamlin: Well, thank you for the opportunity. It's always great to see you.